Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

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Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by Chernp » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:06 am

Drying does not seem to convert but boiling does



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Re: Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by amanitadreamer » Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:47 pm

Chernp wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:06 am
Drying does not seem to convert but boiling does


This is how it degrades over time at different pH values. I cover all this on the channel. Drying converts about 30%, simmering another 30 and lemon another 30.
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Re: Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by Chernp » Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:23 pm

I'm finding posts on reddit that keep saying to boil it for 150 minutes as that is the main way of converting to Muscimol.

I'm a bit confused since your method of simmering seems to contradict what is typed in these posts. Please clarify

Is it enough to just dry it, and simmer with lemons for about an hour?

The posts below suggest to boil it for 150 minutes?


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Re: Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by researcher22 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 pm

amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:47 pm
Chernp wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:06 am
Drying does not seem to convert but boiling does


This is how it degrades over time at different pH values. I cover all this on the channel. Drying converts about 30%, simmering another 30 and lemon another 30.
This chart from the Nielson paper is very informative as far as comparing using heat alone vs. heat and ph of 2.7. It looks adding the ph 2.7 to the heat gives a 5 fold increase in the yield. I can also see it takes 150 minutes for the maximum conversion. I would not want to use heat alone.

However, this graph does not show using low ph alone. Amanita dreamer seems to be asserting that 30% conversion can be done with 2.7 ph at room temperature. But, I've seen no experimental data to confirm this.

Also, the assertions seem to be implying that there is a cumulative effect of applying low ph and of applying heat, even when performed in isolation. My understanding is that it is the combination of heat and ph together which is effective. It may be that low ph alone can convert and perhaps there is some experience to suggest this, but I have not seen any experimental data to show this.

If I wanted to be sure to get a reliable result I would go with the ph of 2.7 and heat as shown in both the patent and now also in this Nielson paper graph. Citric Acid or Malic Acid could probably be used to bring some water to ph 2.7. The amanita mushroom would be powdered and kept cooking in a pot with a thermometer for 150 minutes. This liquid could then be filtered with a cloth and the ph adjusted if necessary.

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Re: Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by amanitadreamer » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:47 am

researcher22 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 pm
amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:47 pm
Chernp wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:06 am
Drying does not seem to convert but boiling does


This is how it degrades over time at different pH values. I cover all this on the channel. Drying converts about 30%, simmering another 30 and lemon another 30.
This chart from the Nielson paper is very informative as far as comparing using heat alone vs. heat and ph of 2.7. It looks adding the ph 2.7 to the heat gives a 5 fold increase in the yield. I can also see it takes 150 minutes for the maximum conversion. I would not want to use heat alone.

However, this graph does not show using low ph alone. Amanita dreamer seems to be asserting that 30% conversion can be done with 2.7 ph at room temperature. But, I've seen no experimental data to confirm this.

Also, the assertions seem to be implying that there is a cumulative effect of applying low ph and of applying heat, even when performed in isolation. My understanding is that it is the combination of heat and ph together which is effective. It may be that low ph alone can convert and perhaps there is some experience to suggest this, but I have not seen any experimental data to show this.

If I wanted to be sure to get a reliable result I would go with the ph of 2.7 and heat as shown in both the patent and now also in this Nielson paper graph. Citric Acid or Malic Acid could probably be used to bring some water to ph 2.7. The amanita mushroom would be powdered and kept cooking in a pot with a thermometer for 150 minutes. This liquid could then be filtered with a cloth and the ph adjusted if necessary.
I don't assert this:
Amanita dreamer seems to be asserting that 30% conversion can be done with 2.7 ph at room temperature.

The science says this:

drying at 165F converts 30%
Simmering for 20 to 30 mins converts another 30%
Adding lemon to it converts another 30%

Citric acid is an unstable acid and sometimes reaches below 4. In labs it is a constant but has to be stabilized. Malic acid can cause skin and eye irritation and can be used as a medicine. Lemon juice is a stable acid and comes in at 2.6.
Acid reactions are trade offs, time or temp.
The science on this has been the same for 30 years now. So much so that researchers no longer cite anything when creating controls through drying or converting.

Tsonuda, 1993 Lays it all out. Pulling tables out like in this post make it impossible to interpret. Is this dry tissue, at what temp, raw? Exposed to sunlight? These things matter. Make sure to be suspicious when people make their own data tables compiling data from varying sources, or isolating a chart or graph. no one can draw conclusions on data pulled out of context.

The original poster was saying drying does not convert (which is true and I am trying to tell people that, you get 30%) but uses a link to a study that has nothing to do with drying. So there's that. The study they linked established this:
A sensitive simultaneous determination of
IBO and MUS in A. muscaria was developed,
allowing analysis of IBO without decomposition. IBO and MUS in the samples were
stable at below 4C in methanol, at below -20C
or at room temperature in a desiccator after
freeze-drying.

It's for learning how to extract shelf stable ibo and musc from mushrooms for lab use using methanol. It also established ethanol is not a good extractor.

There's so many bad statements in that original post brought over from Reddit I don't know where to start and I'm not even going to address it.

Unless folks want to get into fermentation, and if you do, cool, the only study you need is Tsunoda 1993, which is what I also follow in my recomendations.

You could read the Compendium the book I review which is basically the Amanita bible.


If you don't trust it and you're rec dosing and you want to boil it for 3 hours with lemon, then that is exactly what you should do. Citric acid I will never recommend because it is not reliable to reach 2.6

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Re: Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by tgt1002 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:12 pm

you can also use distilled white vinegar especially if you are going to boil/evap all the liquid for a resin based extract as then you use the acid and then get rid of it you can then make capsules with the resin (low temp dab it according to a redditor) or what I once did was make a resin then redissolve it in a precise amount of alcohol and water to make a more precise cleaner tincture
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Re: Drying does not convert ibotenic acid into Muscimol!

Post by researcher22 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:40 am

Thank you for that additional information amanitadreamer and tgt1002

After your post I read the three Tsunoda papers published in 1993, and the relevant chapters in the compendium.

What I got from the Changes in Simultaneous Analysis paper is that paper was that the Ibotenic acid and muscimol are stable for about 2 months after harvest. In the third month these products degrade rapidly by 90%. This is believed to be caused by an enzyme. Freezing at -20C, storing in a cool dark place or storing at 4C in MeOH had essentially no effect on preservation.

This is rather concerning that the actives would degrade so rapidly by 90%, even when frozen. I am not sure if drying can stop this reaction, but the enzyme may be stopped by removing moisture, as that was not tested.

What I got from the Changes in Ibotenic Acid paper is that dry heating destroys about 95% of the ibotenic acid and converts about 5% of it to muscimol. This also seems to be incredibly wasteful and I suspect an enzyme reaction may preserve and convert the ibotenic acid thus avoiding the very destructive conversion. Ibotenic acid appears to be degrees above 40C and muscimol gradually from 40 C to 80 C and then rapidly above 80 C. This paper also shows that a PH of 4 doubles conversion over a PH of 5 and multiples conversion about 7 fold over a PH of 8. Cook time was 90 minutes.

The third paper Changes in Concentration has to do with concentration in parts of the mushroom and during growth and not as related.

tgt1002 mentioned using vinegar. I like this idea to some extent as I think it would be easier to obtain vinegar than fresh lemons. Perhaps apple cider vinegar. I hope this is considered shelf stable. Is acetic acid stable? The boiling point of acetic acid is also higher than water, so I guess more water will evaporate and also the vinegar may not evaporate unless going higher in temperature, at which point I would hope this would not destroy the molecules.

I was interested in the idea of using GAD + P5P, directly without going through GAD production. However, GAD does not seem to be readily available. I also wonder how the bacteria work if P5P is a cofactor. I guess the bacteria produce P5P. I know bacteria are said to produce b-complex. That is how they were discovered.

This brings up the important point that using an enzyme not only providers very high conversion, but would provide much more total muscimol. The enzyme can work at low temperature. If 95% is destroyed by heat or even storage, imagine a fresh mushroom with enzyme applied. I wonder how that result would then be stable or preserved, or if the enzyme would continue to degrade. Storage may not be possible. More information on the degrading enzyme may be necessary.

There are also stories of people using saliva to prepare amanita muscaria. I listented to the interview with Trust Austin and he talked about how the women would often chew the mushrooms up and give them to the shamans. I think the speculation was that the bacteria which create GAD. But I'm not sure about the logistics of this actually working. Could somebody keep the mushroom piece in the mouth long enough for this conversion to happen? Is there GAD present? Is there a cofacter? Did they perhaps chew the mushroom up and then maybe spit it out and let it sit for a while, maybe even fermenting a little? These details have not been experimentally confirmed.

I would also like to give some information to amanitadraemer which may be helpful. I know you are very interested in lowering anxiety etc. You can increase your GABA and increase your GAD levels by going back to the original human diet by running your brain off of beta-hydroxybutyrate instead of glucose. This should also give you more energy, clarity and many benefits. There is also very interesting because you are already targetting GABA with the mushroom, so this may be the perfect target for you with the original human diet which also targets that.

I know of a story of a person similar to you that struggled with anxiety and depression her whole life and switched over to beta-hydroxybutyrate and it cured her problems. You can see a link to one of her videos here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=__0WqiD04vs

People often forget that while we are very adaptable, we are not eating the original human diet. Humans were running their brain off of beta-hydroxybuterate for a long time up to the recent inter-glacial period which started roughly 13,000 years ago.

I can give you detailed information on recreating the necessary input or answer any questions. You would take approximately 400 grams of food per day, 200 grams twice per day most likely as you will only be hungry twice per day. Hunger will present approximately 6 hours after waking and a second time 7 or 8 hours after that. No plants are consumed and only water is drank. Beef liver is consumed for micro-nutrients and marrow may as well. There is an adaption period of days or weeks as this is a significant change in metabolism.

The ratio is always 100 grams of meat to 35 grams of fat which is a fat to protein ratio of 2:1. A ratio of 3:1 is sometimes done as well, though normally reserved for people with epilepsy. So, 100 grams of steak, with 35 grams of tallow for example. The red meat is beef for simplicity. Tallow should be purchased in glass jars. It can also be rendered at home muscle fat trimmings, though that is technically not tallow as it has a higher content of monounsaturated fat and will be soft at room temperature like mash potatoes more than a bar of soap. True tallow is made from suet, not meat fat trimmings. The typical frozen suet I've bought I have not liked the taste of. So, I would suggest either buying the tallow jars or rendering the meat trimmings. The meat trimmings has to be from a butcher that is willing to sell that to you. Tallow made from meat trimmings is very neutral in taste and is smooth and creamy. I have made some myself. Do not buy tallow in plastic containers. It will taste horrible.

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