The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
- fantanyl
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
So after the maybe a little confusion like post at some points yesterday i wanted to clear the mess up a little bit.
This post is dedicated to the Structure similarities thing i talked about.
So my claim is as already said, the GAD could have the same impact (decarboxylation) on the mystery compound of the fleece like it has on the ibotenic acid -> Muscimol and Glutamate -> GABA,
because it could be a precursor of ibotenic acid with then of course a similar structue.
So the fleece produces the precursor and the Amanita mushroom takes this precursor and metabolizes it to ibotenic acid, so far the theory.
Of course i can only assume this, but i think the situation that the fleece produces a compound whose effects could be explained maybe as Fly agaric inebration light, would "confirm" this.
therefore i think the theory it could be a precursor with a similar sturcture and similar but lighter psychoactive properties is not toooo far fetched what do you think ?
think about the maybe a bit more far fetched example of LSA and LSD.
maybe not the best example because LSA is natural and LSD isnt but i yo kno what i mean.
The thing that a wider specturm of different and similar compounds can be decarboxylized by the GAD then just glutamate and ibotenic acid, can in my opinion be very good seen in just looking at the structures.
i dont know how good one can see this as how i tried to explained this yesterday, so now i tried to create a shematic where it shoud be seen a bit better. at first there are Glutamate and ibotenic acid.
as i tried to show you yesterday there are more well known compounds with actually psychoactive properties.
Some of them have greater similarities with glutamate then ibotenic acid.
i picked the well known compound Pregabaline (lyrica)
and created a theoretical pre-decarboxylized precursor form of it to demonstrate, that the GAD should lead to decarboxylation of this theoretical compound more obviously than with ibotenic acid because it has more structure similarities with glutamate then ibotenic acid.
under the thoretical pre-decarboxylated Pregabaline precursor i placed a shematic of the possible places for isomeric playroom for our mystery compound of the fleece.
But as far as i know its already considered as a fact that ibotenic acid gets decaboxylated by GAD.
This expands the possibilitys of what the mystery compound could be dramatically because there is even larger room for isomers of glutamate/ibotenic acid
this is the reason for me placeing the compound glutamine and its theoretical decarboxylated form beneath them all, because as you can see in the next shematic glutamine shares even more similarities with ibotenic acid then glutamate does. (the arrows are of course no reactions) So as you can see Glutamine shares a more detailed Ground skeletal structure with ibotenic acid then glutamate does with ibotenic acid, because it shares the Nitrogen at this place with ibotenic acid where glutamate (or glutamic acid) has only an oxygen atom. But of course the dobble bounds are on different locations but i think the same atom placements are nearer similarities then just the same dobble bound placements. (especially when considering the metabolic pathway)
this would lead to even greater possibilities what the mystery compound could be.
The mystey Fleece active (theoretic precurser of Ibotenic acid) could not only be an isomer of glutamate/glutaminic acid but also a isomer of the near relative glutamine.
By the way does someone know this decarboxylized form of glutamine? it should have already a name i think, because of its rather simple structure (i dont mean the name 1,4-diamino-butan-1-on)
This is all theoretical and i´ll be happy with all of your critics, additions, help, questions, or other forms of feedback! feel free to join this discussion!
This post is dedicated to the Structure similarities thing i talked about.
So my claim is as already said, the GAD could have the same impact (decarboxylation) on the mystery compound of the fleece like it has on the ibotenic acid -> Muscimol and Glutamate -> GABA,
because it could be a precursor of ibotenic acid with then of course a similar structue.
So the fleece produces the precursor and the Amanita mushroom takes this precursor and metabolizes it to ibotenic acid, so far the theory.
Of course i can only assume this, but i think the situation that the fleece produces a compound whose effects could be explained maybe as Fly agaric inebration light, would "confirm" this.
therefore i think the theory it could be a precursor with a similar sturcture and similar but lighter psychoactive properties is not toooo far fetched what do you think ?
think about the maybe a bit more far fetched example of LSA and LSD.
maybe not the best example because LSA is natural and LSD isnt but i yo kno what i mean.
The thing that a wider specturm of different and similar compounds can be decarboxylized by the GAD then just glutamate and ibotenic acid, can in my opinion be very good seen in just looking at the structures.
i dont know how good one can see this as how i tried to explained this yesterday, so now i tried to create a shematic where it shoud be seen a bit better. at first there are Glutamate and ibotenic acid.
as i tried to show you yesterday there are more well known compounds with actually psychoactive properties.
Some of them have greater similarities with glutamate then ibotenic acid.
i picked the well known compound Pregabaline (lyrica)
and created a theoretical pre-decarboxylized precursor form of it to demonstrate, that the GAD should lead to decarboxylation of this theoretical compound more obviously than with ibotenic acid because it has more structure similarities with glutamate then ibotenic acid.
under the thoretical pre-decarboxylated Pregabaline precursor i placed a shematic of the possible places for isomeric playroom for our mystery compound of the fleece.
But as far as i know its already considered as a fact that ibotenic acid gets decaboxylated by GAD.
This expands the possibilitys of what the mystery compound could be dramatically because there is even larger room for isomers of glutamate/ibotenic acid
this is the reason for me placeing the compound glutamine and its theoretical decarboxylated form beneath them all, because as you can see in the next shematic glutamine shares even more similarities with ibotenic acid then glutamate does. (the arrows are of course no reactions) So as you can see Glutamine shares a more detailed Ground skeletal structure with ibotenic acid then glutamate does with ibotenic acid, because it shares the Nitrogen at this place with ibotenic acid where glutamate (or glutamic acid) has only an oxygen atom. But of course the dobble bounds are on different locations but i think the same atom placements are nearer similarities then just the same dobble bound placements. (especially when considering the metabolic pathway)
this would lead to even greater possibilities what the mystery compound could be.
The mystey Fleece active (theoretic precurser of Ibotenic acid) could not only be an isomer of glutamate/glutaminic acid but also a isomer of the near relative glutamine.
By the way does someone know this decarboxylized form of glutamine? it should have already a name i think, because of its rather simple structure (i dont mean the name 1,4-diamino-butan-1-on)
This is all theoretical and i´ll be happy with all of your critics, additions, help, questions, or other forms of feedback! feel free to join this discussion!
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
@fantanyl
Thank you so much for simplifying your hypothesis for me! I am a little embarrassed that I am not nearly as fluent in the lingo, nor the chemistry you are clearly adept in! But I just want to say that your hypothesis is EXACTLY what my intuition was, yet way better elucidated than I was able to do! I'm so glad you are experimenting around this. And yes your LSA vs LSD example fits perfectly to describe the potential relationship. I think this is exactly what is going on. A precursor to Ibotenic acid. ( I guess technically I was saying an analogue to it...) The precursor idea is really good, because this mold literally lives inside of the amanita, it would make sense that Ibotenic Acid is produced in the mushroom as part of a system that includes the fleece somehow, followed by the Amanita converting the precursor into ibotenic acid, and then Muscimol... But that is just what I have thought based on my experience and the similar yet dissimilar experience compared to Amanita. I really believe that the fleece is already an integral part of the amanita mushroom, else why would it be so consistently found in Amanita varieties? It is that consistency which makes me wonder if the amanita isn't actually just a dual fungus. Maybe isolated Amanita Muscaria culture wont produce mushrooms because it is isolated from its other half, the fleece. I could see them working together. The fleece would grow out speedily and the amanita would grow behind it slowly. Like the fleece prepares the way underground, so the amanita mycelium can safely follow. Then some sort of mutual exchange. Or it could be parasitic too, but I feel like it's much more likely positive for both. Wild theories are just pathways to the truth, right? Lolol Anyways, Good luck to you and I can't wait to see what you come up with next!!
Thank you so much for simplifying your hypothesis for me! I am a little embarrassed that I am not nearly as fluent in the lingo, nor the chemistry you are clearly adept in! But I just want to say that your hypothesis is EXACTLY what my intuition was, yet way better elucidated than I was able to do! I'm so glad you are experimenting around this. And yes your LSA vs LSD example fits perfectly to describe the potential relationship. I think this is exactly what is going on. A precursor to Ibotenic acid. ( I guess technically I was saying an analogue to it...) The precursor idea is really good, because this mold literally lives inside of the amanita, it would make sense that Ibotenic Acid is produced in the mushroom as part of a system that includes the fleece somehow, followed by the Amanita converting the precursor into ibotenic acid, and then Muscimol... But that is just what I have thought based on my experience and the similar yet dissimilar experience compared to Amanita. I really believe that the fleece is already an integral part of the amanita mushroom, else why would it be so consistently found in Amanita varieties? It is that consistency which makes me wonder if the amanita isn't actually just a dual fungus. Maybe isolated Amanita Muscaria culture wont produce mushrooms because it is isolated from its other half, the fleece. I could see them working together. The fleece would grow out speedily and the amanita would grow behind it slowly. Like the fleece prepares the way underground, so the amanita mycelium can safely follow. Then some sort of mutual exchange. Or it could be parasitic too, but I feel like it's much more likely positive for both. Wild theories are just pathways to the truth, right? Lolol Anyways, Good luck to you and I can't wait to see what you come up with next!!
- fantanyl
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
Thanks @Mcpato ! It means a lot to me that my lingo is well recieved, because i think as you already recognized, english is not my first language so especially this makes me happy! you wouldnt believe how often i have to open an internet dictionary for my posts
It also makes me happy you also have the intuition, that this would make sense, that stenghtenes me enormously !Mcpato wrote: ↑Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:54 pm@fantanyl
Thank you so much for simplifying your hypothesis for me! I am a little embarrassed that I am not nearly as fluent in the lingo, nor the chemistry you are clearly adept in! But I just want to say that your hypothesis is EXACTLY what my intuition was, yet way better elucidated than I was able to do! I'm so glad you are experimenting around this. And yes your LSA vs LSD example fits perfectly to describe the potential relationship. I think this is exactly what is going on. A precursor to Ibotenic acid. ( I guess technically I was saying an analogue to it...) The precursor idea is really good, because this mold literally lives inside of the amanita, it would make sense that Ibotenic Acid is produced in the mushroom as part of a system that includes the fleece somehow, followed by the Amanita converting the precursor into ibotenic acid, and then Muscimol... But that is just what I have thought based on my experience and the similar yet dissimilar experience compared to Amanita. I really believe that the fleece is already an integral part of the amanita mushroom, else why would it be so consistently found in Amanita varieties? It is that consistency which makes me wonder if the amanita isn't actually just a dual fungus. Maybe isolated Amanita Muscaria culture wont produce mushrooms because it is isolated from its other half, the fleece. I could see them working together. The fleece would grow out speedily and the amanita would grow behind it slowly. Like the fleece prepares the way underground, so the amanita mycelium can safely follow. Then some sort of mutual exchange. Or it could be parasitic too, but I feel like it's much more likely positive for both. Wild theories are just pathways to the truth, right? Lolol Anyways, Good luck to you and I can't wait to see what you come up with next!!
I didn´t think about such an intense relationship of the two funal organizms yet, that it could even be the fleece which is a big part of the hole underground system of this symbiosis but it would absolutly makes sense. i saw with my own eyes how fast it grows!
i´d love to experiment with this but as far as i know there weren´t any experiments in cultivating the amanita muscaria fungus in isolated form with success so far. Wether with or without the fleece part, as far as my researches in this went, it needs a tree in this symbiosis to build fruiting bodys. but i think there were never experiments in cultivating the amanita muscaria and fleeve isolated together in a liquid or solid medium. Maybe its not the tree which is needed but the fleece, as you already mentioned. i definitly have to research this!
And yeah i also think this is no parasitic relation ship, i think its compareable with the morning glory vine, in this vine there lives a symbiotic fungus you dont even see with bare eyes, which is responsible for most of the actives (LSA, i think you already know this but i always try to write the content in this thread in a way that every one understands it even with no foreknowledge), and every time when the seeds are ripe, the fungus concentrates in the seeds so in future generations there will be still the symbiosis. the vine gives the fungus the nutrients it needes and the fungus gives the vine actives which are usefull in very different ways for example antibiotics or to defend from beeing eaten by bugs or whatever.
why shouldnt this be possible for the two fungal organisms! Dual fungus is a good word to describe such a symbiosis in short! i´m not sure but is something like this even mentioned in the book of the Don? ... definitly have to look this up again.
Another thing i wanted to mention in this post is, especially at the time i tried to find the fleece i have read through the ambrosia societys fleece part of this forum over and over again, because here are the only good informations on this in the hole internet as far as i know. As i did in the last days again a lot but this time with a bit more experience and foreknowledge i recognized again how MUCH good informations are hidden in this threads. i think i will try to sample much of the keypoints of them in form of sum ups and quotes, to present these informations in a more organized way.
As example i think it would be great to find all of the different descriptions of the effects of the fleece in one central post or maybe a new thread in the Ambrosia Societys fleece part, what do you think ? a dedicated thread to the fleece´s effects, sounds great to me!
Especially yours @Mcpato , @T36 ´s and @Splinters and Shards posts are the last real goldmine of informations for any in-the-fleece interested guys out there! (would love to see Splinters and Shards and T36 here again)
Still definitly agree with this, but for the few truly interested i feel the need to present some of these informations in a more compact and organized way.
Yesterday i found something VERY interesting in a place i never expected to:
(viewtopic.php?f=5&t=122&start=30)Splinters and Shards wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:39 pm
I have not heard of that user in the forum, but I contribute most of the miraculous healings I experienced directly to the fleece living in my gut. I started all of this because of religious reasons, specifically because I believe the law of the Nazarite in the Torah (Old Testament Bible) and many other restrictive "holy" diets are to cultivate the fungus in a person's gut as the main foundation of the mycobiome. I believe those who are truly "holy" have the right internal conditions to house the fungus. The new and old testaments both speak of the Living God literally living in his people.
Many people now recognize the microbiome, but like any healthy ecosystem it is the fungus that establishes good conditions for a balanced ecosystem. The human gut is the same as a forest and in order for the Flora and fauna to thrive, you need the right fungi in place. But even before that, the climate and soil conditions have to be right.
Thats AMAZING!
@Mcpato you did already talk with him in the thread i quoted this and in one of the threads in this section of the forum also if i remember correctly (definitly have to read that up again too), did you have some success with this?
i think this could be a hard quest because the purifying but i´m VERY curious.
and one last thing:
I found out there is an archieved version of the Ambrosia societys forum there (https://web.archive.org/web/20180706000 ... .org/forum), but i dont have acces because i dont have an account, and the creating an account feature is seemingly not part of the archive, damn
do you know of another way to take a read in this (SADLY) deleted forums?
Thanks again! i´ll post as soon as i have news! today i inoculated the lactic acid bacteria in the starter culture medium and the fleece in his current cleaning up step solid medium seems to be almost ready! cant wait to combine them!
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
just checked the pH of the Lactobacillus brevis culture
I did inoculate 2 jars with 30g/l sugar and a little sprinkle yeast nutrients,
and in one of the two jars the pH was manipulated down to ~5 with tartraric acid,
this is as i already mentioned my first time culuring an isolated bacteria strain (inoculation was as sterile as possible in a still air box)
i did with two different start level pH´s to see afterwards what works better.
the Volume of the inoculation medium was maybe ~5mL of the Lactobacillus Brevis WLP672 stored in the fridge (for 3 days before use)
and inoculated 330ml of the sugar and yeast nutrients medium.
the jars were all the time stored in room temperature and i wraped tin foil around to protect it from light and maybe a little bit heat accumulation.
so the todays pH check seems to show no significant pH lowering in both jars, which confuses me a little bit because i expected already bacteria growth and the presense of lactic acid. sorce: https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single? ... yle_type=5
with my room temperature storage it is ok that it goes a bit slower so i'll check in 2 days again, but if then theres still no difference in pH maybe i´ll have to start again with other conditions ...
Maybe i´m just a bit spoiled of the incredibly easy and fast growth of the fleece, so my assessments of how fast other microbes can grow are just not in an objective view haha
If someone has tips for me please feel free to bring them in ! would absolutely apreciate it !
@lostmushroomforest maybe ?
By the way i realized once again by reading through the threads in this section of the forum, how many high quality infos and pictorials on the cultivation of the fleece and theories around it were already there before me joining the discussion,
even the analoge/precurser theory of the fleece´s actives are already well elaborated, just look at the first page of even THIS thread!
Everyone whos seriously interested in the fleece should definitly read through all of the Threads in the Ambrosia Societys section of this forum. And i´ll try to sum them up and present them in a more concentrated way.
just wanted to make sure it doesnt look like i want to make some of these theories look like only MY new theories, i just added my ideas how this could make sense in a chemical perspective and in conjuntion with these enzymes of the lactobacillus species (GAD).
I did inoculate 2 jars with 30g/l sugar and a little sprinkle yeast nutrients,
and in one of the two jars the pH was manipulated down to ~5 with tartraric acid,
this is as i already mentioned my first time culuring an isolated bacteria strain (inoculation was as sterile as possible in a still air box)
i did with two different start level pH´s to see afterwards what works better.
the Volume of the inoculation medium was maybe ~5mL of the Lactobacillus Brevis WLP672 stored in the fridge (for 3 days before use)
and inoculated 330ml of the sugar and yeast nutrients medium.
the jars were all the time stored in room temperature and i wraped tin foil around to protect it from light and maybe a little bit heat accumulation.
so the todays pH check seems to show no significant pH lowering in both jars, which confuses me a little bit because i expected already bacteria growth and the presense of lactic acid. sorce: https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single? ... yle_type=5
with my room temperature storage it is ok that it goes a bit slower so i'll check in 2 days again, but if then theres still no difference in pH maybe i´ll have to start again with other conditions ...
Maybe i´m just a bit spoiled of the incredibly easy and fast growth of the fleece, so my assessments of how fast other microbes can grow are just not in an objective view haha
If someone has tips for me please feel free to bring them in ! would absolutely apreciate it !
@lostmushroomforest maybe ?
By the way i realized once again by reading through the threads in this section of the forum, how many high quality infos and pictorials on the cultivation of the fleece and theories around it were already there before me joining the discussion,
even the analoge/precurser theory of the fleece´s actives are already well elaborated, just look at the first page of even THIS thread!
Everyone whos seriously interested in the fleece should definitly read through all of the Threads in the Ambrosia Societys section of this forum. And i´ll try to sum them up and present them in a more concentrated way.
just wanted to make sure it doesnt look like i want to make some of these theories look like only MY new theories, i just added my ideas how this could make sense in a chemical perspective and in conjuntion with these enzymes of the lactobacillus species (GAD).
Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
Has anyone ever tried making the fleece with fresh mushroom? It seems like only dried mushroom has ever been used, but why? Surely someone would have thought of trying it by now, the people at the ambrosia society did collect their own mushrooms after all. Or is it the drying that 'activates' the mold, like with triops eggs ?
- fantanyl
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
2 years ago i did a couple of tests with fresh little pieces of the hat of the amanita mushroom but only got a lot of contamsredleech wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 2:39 pmHas anyone ever tried making the fleece with fresh mushroom? It seems like only dried mushroom has ever been used, but why? Surely someone would have thought of trying it by now, the people at the ambrosia society did collect their own mushrooms after all. Or is it the drying that 'activates' the mold, like with triops eggs ?
but back then i did only try putting the fresh pieces straight into the sterilized grape juice, and as i learned later this leads very likely to much contams wether the mushroom is dry or not
later (last year) i learned, it is much easier or with much likely more success to let the fleece grow and isolate it on solids then grow it on juice. i did it with pressure sterilized brown rice flour and vermiculite. i think this method would probably work without letting the mushroom dry at first. so yes
but i dont know for sure as i didnt try it yet.
very important is that the mushroom is not heat dried, because this kills the spores
for more instructions about this, you can read many good informations in this and the other threads of the ambrosia society section in the posts of Mcpato and others
i hope this helps
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
hello -
how do you feel about combining the fleece with kefir, maybe not the young, but rather matured type that appears less carbonated? i remember from the book it had been advised to not consume amanita with carbonated beverages or foods, although i've had a beer maybe two hours after consuming the dried mushroom. never had any issues with consuming living bread and kefir.
i am very grateful for having discovered this forum and am very happy to see scoby experiment, since, as a big tea and combucha enthusiast, temptations had crossed my mind to try the holy grail with a mixture of blacktea and sugar, just like i'd go for combucha.
anyhow, cosidering water, i was going to suggest an experiment: i've always been exposed to high altitude and the cold, somehow got into ice baths when not in the mountains and feel like, exposing myself the the ice water (we're having cold flows all year long, bavarias rivers are constantly cooled by ice water melting coming from the glaciers and higher mountains) under the influence of the fleece has a very, very reviving effect to me, while each practice for itself is already a high boost of energy.
has the modern world probably misunderstood the every- or every other day practise of baptism as a once in a life time experience you benefit from a whole lifetime? i most certainly feel so.
thanks and regards from bavaria
how do you feel about combining the fleece with kefir, maybe not the young, but rather matured type that appears less carbonated? i remember from the book it had been advised to not consume amanita with carbonated beverages or foods, although i've had a beer maybe two hours after consuming the dried mushroom. never had any issues with consuming living bread and kefir.
i am very grateful for having discovered this forum and am very happy to see scoby experiment, since, as a big tea and combucha enthusiast, temptations had crossed my mind to try the holy grail with a mixture of blacktea and sugar, just like i'd go for combucha.
anyhow, cosidering water, i was going to suggest an experiment: i've always been exposed to high altitude and the cold, somehow got into ice baths when not in the mountains and feel like, exposing myself the the ice water (we're having cold flows all year long, bavarias rivers are constantly cooled by ice water melting coming from the glaciers and higher mountains) under the influence of the fleece has a very, very reviving effect to me, while each practice for itself is already a high boost of energy.
has the modern world probably misunderstood the every- or every other day practise of baptism as a once in a life time experience you benefit from a whole lifetime? i most certainly feel so.
thanks and regards from bavaria
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
So after a couple of month i currently try to continue to find new ways of working with the fleece in a progressive ways
In the past months i did a lot of other projects related to fermentations or microorganisms in general,
I did a lot of brewing with yeasts and herbs, so i got a bit of a new perspective on the work with the fleece.
I learned how much it depends on how the microorganism is fed and what symbiotic cultures are living together.
i thought yeast is yeast and it does produce alcohol.
but i learned how many different yeasts are used and how they are used in symbiosis with other microorganisms like lactobacillus to bring new flavors like new sour tones into the brew.
I never did experiments with kefir but i have read in some kefirs are yeasts as symbionts.
so many different micororganisms, many different enzymes and many different herbs with many different substances inside which can be converted by the enzymes to new exciting ingredents of the brew!
For example I'm very interested in alternative ways to absinthe which involves fermentation of the wormwood and the other herbs before distillation, this gives a more distinct effect than just maceration and distillation!
I already tried different yeasts, but now i plan to wildferment .. imagine the mixed bag you'd get right out of the nature
- Sacred and herbal healing beers by Steven Harold Buhner is an excellent read, if interested in these kind of experiments
But back to the fleece -- the principle of what symbionts are present and with what its fed could likely play a much greater role than we thought about. I think this is the key why the effects described by different people are so dramatically different - some describe it as LSD like, some als mild adaptogen or tonic, some as strong inebriating, some exactly like amanita and some simply dont feel anything - sure, different people, different biology, different reactions, this can also play a big role (especially if you got ever in contact with nutmeg and space paste and the like) - but i think the right symbiosis and preperation does play a bigger role.
So maybe all the different descriptions of effects are possible if the fleece has the right partner working together -
and all trials i have read in which the fleece is first isolated on agar lead to no effect.
and i think don teeter never did isolations on agar, and he got very consistent effects.
As already partly elaborated in this thread it could be possible if the fleece lives like an endophyte in the amanita mushroom and they are working together as symbiosis partners to create the ibotenic acid and muscimole - first some kind of precurser is collected in nature, maybe some amino-acid like glutamine, the fleece synthesizes some intermediate and gives it to the amanita which further creates the ibotenic acid (highly theoretical)
- so as already stated in many occations by disbelievers of the fleece, the fleece is not amanita mycelium, but maybe it is possible to get an culture of fleece with amanita as symbiotic partner and also a fleece culture without amanita - the culture with amanita COULD be able (with the right nutrition) to produce ibotenic acid and the culture without the amanita would stop at the intermediate before the ibotenic acid.
the intermediate could also have a psychotropic effect but maybe much milder, which could explain why many people experience a much milder form of psychotropic effect.
and then there are a lot other scoby like mircoorganism in the symbiosis which could have a good effect like the lactobacillus with its GAD and yeasts with negative effects as consuming the actives (a couple of posts ago i tried to expand on this a bit)
I think don teeter simply had a very good symbiotic culture, maybe even with amanita inside and a helpfull scopy part - when other people tried to re-do it and got a culture without the ability to produce the good stuff they got frustrated and claimed this is all scam or placebo or whatever ...
And it could go much further - i think about endophytes which are living in plants, which are not detectable with the naked eye - there are many which produce ergotalkaloids.
there are also different aspergillius species wich produce them. maybe there are much more microorganisms which are able to produce psychotropics.
who knows maybe in wildcollected fleece there is already the possibility some of these psychotropics producer are already in the fleece symbiosis - i think these cutting edges are very not unterstood yet.
maybe it's even possible to force such an symbiosis with an endophyte which is not able to life without its plant host - imagine what they could produce.
So my plan is to isolate the fleece on agar and study it's behavior in precense of another mycelium-like organism on the same agar plate as i finaly managed to learn how to handle this whole sterile petridish stuff.
also interesting would be to ferment herbs with psychoactive/medicinal properties with the fleece ..
but for today this was enough texting and theories without any evidence
So stanley (or anybody else, too of course) any new conclusions or thoughts on experiments maybe with the kefir or kombucha or any other thoughts are highly appreciated
I feel like these thoughts are the way to go!stanley_haze wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 9:07 amhello -
how do you feel about combining the fleece with kefir, maybe not the young, but rather matured type that appears less carbonated?
In the past months i did a lot of other projects related to fermentations or microorganisms in general,
I did a lot of brewing with yeasts and herbs, so i got a bit of a new perspective on the work with the fleece.
I learned how much it depends on how the microorganism is fed and what symbiotic cultures are living together.
i thought yeast is yeast and it does produce alcohol.
but i learned how many different yeasts are used and how they are used in symbiosis with other microorganisms like lactobacillus to bring new flavors like new sour tones into the brew.
I never did experiments with kefir but i have read in some kefirs are yeasts as symbionts.
so many different micororganisms, many different enzymes and many different herbs with many different substances inside which can be converted by the enzymes to new exciting ingredents of the brew!
For example I'm very interested in alternative ways to absinthe which involves fermentation of the wormwood and the other herbs before distillation, this gives a more distinct effect than just maceration and distillation!
I already tried different yeasts, but now i plan to wildferment .. imagine the mixed bag you'd get right out of the nature
- Sacred and herbal healing beers by Steven Harold Buhner is an excellent read, if interested in these kind of experiments
But back to the fleece -- the principle of what symbionts are present and with what its fed could likely play a much greater role than we thought about. I think this is the key why the effects described by different people are so dramatically different - some describe it as LSD like, some als mild adaptogen or tonic, some as strong inebriating, some exactly like amanita and some simply dont feel anything - sure, different people, different biology, different reactions, this can also play a big role (especially if you got ever in contact with nutmeg and space paste and the like) - but i think the right symbiosis and preperation does play a bigger role.
So maybe all the different descriptions of effects are possible if the fleece has the right partner working together -
and all trials i have read in which the fleece is first isolated on agar lead to no effect.
and i think don teeter never did isolations on agar, and he got very consistent effects.
As already partly elaborated in this thread it could be possible if the fleece lives like an endophyte in the amanita mushroom and they are working together as symbiosis partners to create the ibotenic acid and muscimole - first some kind of precurser is collected in nature, maybe some amino-acid like glutamine, the fleece synthesizes some intermediate and gives it to the amanita which further creates the ibotenic acid (highly theoretical)
- so as already stated in many occations by disbelievers of the fleece, the fleece is not amanita mycelium, but maybe it is possible to get an culture of fleece with amanita as symbiotic partner and also a fleece culture without amanita - the culture with amanita COULD be able (with the right nutrition) to produce ibotenic acid and the culture without the amanita would stop at the intermediate before the ibotenic acid.
the intermediate could also have a psychotropic effect but maybe much milder, which could explain why many people experience a much milder form of psychotropic effect.
and then there are a lot other scoby like mircoorganism in the symbiosis which could have a good effect like the lactobacillus with its GAD and yeasts with negative effects as consuming the actives (a couple of posts ago i tried to expand on this a bit)
I think don teeter simply had a very good symbiotic culture, maybe even with amanita inside and a helpfull scopy part - when other people tried to re-do it and got a culture without the ability to produce the good stuff they got frustrated and claimed this is all scam or placebo or whatever ...
And it could go much further - i think about endophytes which are living in plants, which are not detectable with the naked eye - there are many which produce ergotalkaloids.
there are also different aspergillius species wich produce them. maybe there are much more microorganisms which are able to produce psychotropics.
who knows maybe in wildcollected fleece there is already the possibility some of these psychotropics producer are already in the fleece symbiosis - i think these cutting edges are very not unterstood yet.
maybe it's even possible to force such an symbiosis with an endophyte which is not able to life without its plant host - imagine what they could produce.
So my plan is to isolate the fleece on agar and study it's behavior in precense of another mycelium-like organism on the same agar plate as i finaly managed to learn how to handle this whole sterile petridish stuff.
also interesting would be to ferment herbs with psychoactive/medicinal properties with the fleece ..
but for today this was enough texting and theories without any evidence
So stanley (or anybody else, too of course) any new conclusions or thoughts on experiments maybe with the kefir or kombucha or any other thoughts are highly appreciated
- These users thanked the author fantanyl for the post:
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
Hey not sure if this is still an active thread but wanted to share that I have a culture of amanita fleece growing on agar. It came from a wild mushroom I found in Washington and I took a piece of the interior stem onto agar. The “mycelium” (or is it mucor) looks just like the pics I’ve seen posted here. Some agar plates have contaminated and the behavior between it and mold is interesting.
So far, I’ve dropped one clean colonized agar slice into store-bought apple juice (under sterile conditions). The piece sunk but I do see defined growth spreading from the inoculant. Unfortunately it isn’t floating like the pictures posted here, so I’m skeptical that what I have is the same.
Has anyone had their “fleece” grow fully submerged?
I will eventually attempt a very small bioassay after boiling the juice.
I’m also interested in making the “cracker” style by inoculating rye grain with the agar-fleece, but I’d rather get the ambrosia to work.
I do have a microscope and I’m wondering if that can help with identification if there’s any other sample pictures available.
So far, I’ve dropped one clean colonized agar slice into store-bought apple juice (under sterile conditions). The piece sunk but I do see defined growth spreading from the inoculant. Unfortunately it isn’t floating like the pictures posted here, so I’m skeptical that what I have is the same.
Has anyone had their “fleece” grow fully submerged?
I will eventually attempt a very small bioassay after boiling the juice.
I’m also interested in making the “cracker” style by inoculating rye grain with the agar-fleece, but I’d rather get the ambrosia to work.
I do have a microscope and I’m wondering if that can help with identification if there’s any other sample pictures available.
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece
gud moing from not so bad toelz -
i will keep this english, although my excitement to find out about how far or deep you're pushing ideas on working with the fleece could be described only in original deep southern bavarian accent.
my apologies for replying so late, i had almost forgotten about this important online forum. everything i know, i've found on the internet. and it must have been that one day in late september of 2019, that i had come across this beautiful specimen of amanita muscaria in the bavarian woods, slighty overdosed on lyseric acid that changed most of my perspectives on the world, hyperspace, everything in between and beyond. i must say, i have truly and consciously connected to that mighty force some may call GOD due to working with amanita muscaria and out of little supply one spring, started to experiment with the dried mushroom.
i've had issues either identifying the fleece or actually cultivating it from mushrooms i had found and collected in tyrolia as well as south east bavaria. after about two years of molds and frustration, i was able to grow it from specimens i had received from a friend in upper allgaeu.
i am pretty convinced we're experiencing an endophyte here. have you found very old amanita muscaria mushrooms that seem to 'mold'? i am sure, that is the fleece, too (maybe among other molds, but we know how strong the fleece is, once it has established its first 'colonies' on the nutrition, only the maggots or deer seem to be stronger after all... - in our fridge you'd experience fleece grow on food that has been in there too long, rather than mold. now think about your beautifully developed organic space ship called human body and how it starts to 'live' inside of you after working with it for a while. it gives the idea of receiving it as a wafer every sunday from true priests of early christianity a whole new quality. imagine whole peoples working with this magical fleece regularly..)
i truly believe, r. gordon wasson and john m. allegro, lately donald teeter were right in their assumptions and want to reclaim that amanita muscaria as well as the fleece are soma mentioned in the earliest texts such as rigveda (to be precise in the FIRST hymn of the rigveda). a side note: another entity that is mentioned in this ancient collection of hymns to the deities is 'agni' and i want to give the hint to look into the ancient biosphere tool caleld 'agnihotra' of the homatherapy. you find plenty of information online. enough said.
i have distributed the dried fleece as well as everything i know about the subject among close friends and family and have witnessed the positive effects on development in each and every case (capable of accepting a 'mold' in their diet ). i do hesitate a bit these days, because it is a very mighty tool and some do not seem to be capable of working with these kind of heavy tools or accept the reality they might experience beyond the programming by western 'civilization'. anyhow, it is something that needs to be distributed among the peoples of the world and to put it in mckenna's words talking about psilocybe mushrooms: 'it's hard to be a rat working with this mushroom' - i think, this is valid for the fleece as well.
thank you for your investigations on working with yeasts and other scobys. i will be happy to study the recommended book. brewing kombucha and making my own yeast waters from roses, plum and apples and then baking bread with these or drinking them directly, as well as fiddling around with cold water infusions of high grade japanese sencha and honey as nutrition for kombucha (or jun-tea as the asian refer to, imho) has brought great joy into my past year and a half since working with the fleece.
one thing that seems to be worth mentioning would be my experiment with the fleece cultivated on cooked quinoa and its rapid growth and immense potency. it must be something about quinoa (color does not matter, it seems like on white quinoa it grows a bit quicker than on the colored or just red quinoa) and its relatively soft grain after cooking. within 24h there was the ready to harvest fleece where it takes me around two to three days to get satisfying conquest of the grain in case of barley (the siberian barley we get here at the local eastern european market seems to be preferred over any other) and rye. i have not tried wheat, but had amazing results on cooked oat, mixed with a little milk and sweetened with honey after cooling down - amazing aroma's and taste.
anyhow, to get to my point: the first time i had worked with quinoa was in dallas, TX in september '22. after successful cultivation, i had just left it in the (still very strong) texan sun to dry.
as any organism used to dark and humid conditions, the fight for survival (i know, it sounds rude to put your symbiotic partner to these kinds of tests, but i am saving karma on not eating the available meat - we eat and drink organisms ALIVE , yet, the three dimensional manifestation of the fleece is, after all, the three dimensional manifestation and the spirit behind it must love that you're working with it, just like the spirit behind cannabis wants you to grow and harvest this divine plant and burn it up. i come from a family of soldiers, big game hunters and hunters - killers. i have dealt with the spiritual background of killing something or someone and made peace with it - no death, no life. life/death are only two aspects of the divine phenomena called LIFE, imho. let me know your thoughts on the subject) must have drastically increased the amount of active ingredient. so amounts the size of peas had the effects i wished for.
also: the more i work with the fleece, the more sensitive to the fleece i've become. to exaggerate a bit here: sometimes just the thought makes me feel happy. when smelling freshly ground fleece, i notice the effect. of course, the spores enter your metabolism via your nose - a cure for the cocaine infected society!?
i forget to work with it for weeks and get tangled up in my everyday to do's or dive into experimenting with other psychotropic tools like the psilocybe mushrooms, lsd or lately ketamine (please let me know your thoughts on this tool, i have not found detailled informations on how to get this from natural sources, but the places it has taken me to felt very much like it is the key to experience another very powerful entity. i know, it's used for anesthesia in veterinary and human medicine, yet, it has given me incredible insights and ideas as well as ancestral communication only the sacred mushroom has provided until today - please study the following link which leads to the only source of information i have considering mushrooms producing organic ketamine
https://parasitesandvectors.biomedcentr ... 20-04402-w
), just to come back to this sacrament and be surprised how loving and caring it is, everytime i start working with it again.
one last thing before 3D shall have me back - it's a beautiful sunday here in bavaria and there had been enough rain lately to find fungi in the woods...
i had brewed kombucha with a brew from fomitopsis betulina found only on birch trees by the isar river, then used already used black tea leaf and sweetened with local organic honey once cooled down. the whole brew, roughly the amount of a soda pop in a small can was then infused with one drop of high quality (98% pure) lyseric acid and stored for months in the (ever moving door of the) fridge. it seemed to me, the ingredients in the brew had given the LSD (i am pretty sure it had not been organically manufactured, but had come from synthetic sources, comparing the effects with the ones of 'organic' acid from switzerland, i had gotten my hands on in late 2015) a kind of boost or even space to 'reproduce' in case you may use this term here. the effects seemd to have inceaed in potency and re-brewing from the last remains of the bottle always kept that acidy touch to the kombucha. maybe enough of the compound had been 'trapped' in the scoby and it is less magical than i am dreaming of here...
please study wasson, hofmann's, wasson's and carl ruck's work on the possibility of ergotamized brews as the foundation of the eleusian mysteris in greece, if you haven't come accross these 'mad mens' ideas' yet.
https://archive.org/details/albert-hoff ... -mysteries
so again, thank you for this platform, the deep insight into all your experiments and the warmest regards from beautiful bavarea51. have a brilliant sunday.
mush love,
SH
i will keep this english, although my excitement to find out about how far or deep you're pushing ideas on working with the fleece could be described only in original deep southern bavarian accent.
my apologies for replying so late, i had almost forgotten about this important online forum. everything i know, i've found on the internet. and it must have been that one day in late september of 2019, that i had come across this beautiful specimen of amanita muscaria in the bavarian woods, slighty overdosed on lyseric acid that changed most of my perspectives on the world, hyperspace, everything in between and beyond. i must say, i have truly and consciously connected to that mighty force some may call GOD due to working with amanita muscaria and out of little supply one spring, started to experiment with the dried mushroom.
i've had issues either identifying the fleece or actually cultivating it from mushrooms i had found and collected in tyrolia as well as south east bavaria. after about two years of molds and frustration, i was able to grow it from specimens i had received from a friend in upper allgaeu.
i am pretty convinced we're experiencing an endophyte here. have you found very old amanita muscaria mushrooms that seem to 'mold'? i am sure, that is the fleece, too (maybe among other molds, but we know how strong the fleece is, once it has established its first 'colonies' on the nutrition, only the maggots or deer seem to be stronger after all... - in our fridge you'd experience fleece grow on food that has been in there too long, rather than mold. now think about your beautifully developed organic space ship called human body and how it starts to 'live' inside of you after working with it for a while. it gives the idea of receiving it as a wafer every sunday from true priests of early christianity a whole new quality. imagine whole peoples working with this magical fleece regularly..)
i truly believe, r. gordon wasson and john m. allegro, lately donald teeter were right in their assumptions and want to reclaim that amanita muscaria as well as the fleece are soma mentioned in the earliest texts such as rigveda (to be precise in the FIRST hymn of the rigveda). a side note: another entity that is mentioned in this ancient collection of hymns to the deities is 'agni' and i want to give the hint to look into the ancient biosphere tool caleld 'agnihotra' of the homatherapy. you find plenty of information online. enough said.
i have distributed the dried fleece as well as everything i know about the subject among close friends and family and have witnessed the positive effects on development in each and every case (capable of accepting a 'mold' in their diet ). i do hesitate a bit these days, because it is a very mighty tool and some do not seem to be capable of working with these kind of heavy tools or accept the reality they might experience beyond the programming by western 'civilization'. anyhow, it is something that needs to be distributed among the peoples of the world and to put it in mckenna's words talking about psilocybe mushrooms: 'it's hard to be a rat working with this mushroom' - i think, this is valid for the fleece as well.
thank you for your investigations on working with yeasts and other scobys. i will be happy to study the recommended book. brewing kombucha and making my own yeast waters from roses, plum and apples and then baking bread with these or drinking them directly, as well as fiddling around with cold water infusions of high grade japanese sencha and honey as nutrition for kombucha (or jun-tea as the asian refer to, imho) has brought great joy into my past year and a half since working with the fleece.
one thing that seems to be worth mentioning would be my experiment with the fleece cultivated on cooked quinoa and its rapid growth and immense potency. it must be something about quinoa (color does not matter, it seems like on white quinoa it grows a bit quicker than on the colored or just red quinoa) and its relatively soft grain after cooking. within 24h there was the ready to harvest fleece where it takes me around two to three days to get satisfying conquest of the grain in case of barley (the siberian barley we get here at the local eastern european market seems to be preferred over any other) and rye. i have not tried wheat, but had amazing results on cooked oat, mixed with a little milk and sweetened with honey after cooling down - amazing aroma's and taste.
anyhow, to get to my point: the first time i had worked with quinoa was in dallas, TX in september '22. after successful cultivation, i had just left it in the (still very strong) texan sun to dry.
as any organism used to dark and humid conditions, the fight for survival (i know, it sounds rude to put your symbiotic partner to these kinds of tests, but i am saving karma on not eating the available meat - we eat and drink organisms ALIVE , yet, the three dimensional manifestation of the fleece is, after all, the three dimensional manifestation and the spirit behind it must love that you're working with it, just like the spirit behind cannabis wants you to grow and harvest this divine plant and burn it up. i come from a family of soldiers, big game hunters and hunters - killers. i have dealt with the spiritual background of killing something or someone and made peace with it - no death, no life. life/death are only two aspects of the divine phenomena called LIFE, imho. let me know your thoughts on the subject) must have drastically increased the amount of active ingredient. so amounts the size of peas had the effects i wished for.
also: the more i work with the fleece, the more sensitive to the fleece i've become. to exaggerate a bit here: sometimes just the thought makes me feel happy. when smelling freshly ground fleece, i notice the effect. of course, the spores enter your metabolism via your nose - a cure for the cocaine infected society!?
i forget to work with it for weeks and get tangled up in my everyday to do's or dive into experimenting with other psychotropic tools like the psilocybe mushrooms, lsd or lately ketamine (please let me know your thoughts on this tool, i have not found detailled informations on how to get this from natural sources, but the places it has taken me to felt very much like it is the key to experience another very powerful entity. i know, it's used for anesthesia in veterinary and human medicine, yet, it has given me incredible insights and ideas as well as ancestral communication only the sacred mushroom has provided until today - please study the following link which leads to the only source of information i have considering mushrooms producing organic ketamine
https://parasitesandvectors.biomedcentr ... 20-04402-w
), just to come back to this sacrament and be surprised how loving and caring it is, everytime i start working with it again.
one last thing before 3D shall have me back - it's a beautiful sunday here in bavaria and there had been enough rain lately to find fungi in the woods...
i had brewed kombucha with a brew from fomitopsis betulina found only on birch trees by the isar river, then used already used black tea leaf and sweetened with local organic honey once cooled down. the whole brew, roughly the amount of a soda pop in a small can was then infused with one drop of high quality (98% pure) lyseric acid and stored for months in the (ever moving door of the) fridge. it seemed to me, the ingredients in the brew had given the LSD (i am pretty sure it had not been organically manufactured, but had come from synthetic sources, comparing the effects with the ones of 'organic' acid from switzerland, i had gotten my hands on in late 2015) a kind of boost or even space to 'reproduce' in case you may use this term here. the effects seemd to have inceaed in potency and re-brewing from the last remains of the bottle always kept that acidy touch to the kombucha. maybe enough of the compound had been 'trapped' in the scoby and it is less magical than i am dreaming of here...
please study wasson, hofmann's, wasson's and carl ruck's work on the possibility of ergotamized brews as the foundation of the eleusian mysteris in greece, if you haven't come accross these 'mad mens' ideas' yet.
https://archive.org/details/albert-hoff ... -mysteries
so again, thank you for this platform, the deep insight into all your experiments and the warmest regards from beautiful bavarea51. have a brilliant sunday.
mush love,
SH
fantanyl wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:30 pmSo after a couple of month i currently try to continue to find new ways of working with the fleece in a progressive ways
I feel like these thoughts are the way to go!stanley_haze wrote: ↑Sat May 21, 2022 9:07 amhello -
how do you feel about combining the fleece with kefir, maybe not the young, but rather matured type that appears less carbonated?
In the past months i did a lot of other projects related to fermentations or microorganisms in general,
I did a lot of brewing with yeasts and herbs, so i got a bit of a new perspective on the work with the fleece.
I learned how much it depends on how the microorganism is fed and what symbiotic cultures are living together.
i thought yeast is yeast and it does produce alcohol.
but i learned how many different yeasts are used and how they are used in symbiosis with other microorganisms like lactobacillus to bring new flavors like new sour tones into the brew.
I never did experiments with kefir but i have read in some kefirs are yeasts as symbionts.
so many different micororganisms, many different enzymes and many different herbs with many different substances inside which can be converted by the enzymes to new exciting ingredents of the brew!
For example I'm very interested in alternative ways to absinthe which involves fermentation of the wormwood and the other herbs before distillation, this gives a more distinct effect than just maceration and distillation!
I already tried different yeasts, but now i plan to wildferment .. imagine the mixed bag you'd get right out of the nature
- Sacred and herbal healing beers by Steven Harold Buhner is an excellent read, if interested in these kind of experiments
But back to the fleece -- the principle of what symbionts are present and with what its fed could likely play a much greater role than we thought about. I think this is the key why the effects described by different people are so dramatically different - some describe it as LSD like, some als mild adaptogen or tonic, some as strong inebriating, some exactly like amanita and some simply dont feel anything - sure, different people, different biology, different reactions, this can also play a big role (especially if you got ever in contact with nutmeg and space paste and the like) - but i think the right symbiosis and preperation does play a bigger role.
So maybe all the different descriptions of effects are possible if the fleece has the right partner working together -
and all trials i have read in which the fleece is first isolated on agar lead to no effect.
and i think don teeter never did isolations on agar, and he got very consistent effects.
As already partly elaborated in this thread it could be possible if the fleece lives like an endophyte in the amanita mushroom and they are working together as symbiosis partners to create the ibotenic acid and muscimole - first some kind of precurser is collected in nature, maybe some amino-acid like glutamine, the fleece synthesizes some intermediate and gives it to the amanita which further creates the ibotenic acid (highly theoretical)
- so as already stated in many occations by disbelievers of the fleece, the fleece is not amanita mycelium, but maybe it is possible to get an culture of fleece with amanita as symbiotic partner and also a fleece culture without amanita - the culture with amanita COULD be able (with the right nutrition) to produce ibotenic acid and the culture without the amanita would stop at the intermediate before the ibotenic acid.
the intermediate could also have a psychotropic effect but maybe much milder, which could explain why many people experience a much milder form of psychotropic effect.
and then there are a lot other scoby like mircoorganism in the symbiosis which could have a good effect like the lactobacillus with its GAD and yeasts with negative effects as consuming the actives (a couple of posts ago i tried to expand on this a bit)
I think don teeter simply had a very good symbiotic culture, maybe even with amanita inside and a helpfull scopy part - when other people tried to re-do it and got a culture without the ability to produce the good stuff they got frustrated and claimed this is all scam or placebo or whatever ...
And it could go much further - i think about endophytes which are living in plants, which are not detectable with the naked eye - there are many which produce ergotalkaloids.
there are also different aspergillius species wich produce them. maybe there are much more microorganisms which are able to produce psychotropics.
who knows maybe in wildcollected fleece there is already the possibility some of these psychotropics producer are already in the fleece symbiosis - i think these cutting edges are very not unterstood yet.
maybe it's even possible to force such an symbiosis with an endophyte which is not able to life without its plant host - imagine what they could produce.
So my plan is to isolate the fleece on agar and study it's behavior in precense of another mycelium-like organism on the same agar plate as i finaly managed to learn how to handle this whole sterile petridish stuff.
also interesting would be to ferment herbs with psychoactive/medicinal properties with the fleece ..
but for today this was enough texting and theories without any evidence
So stanley (or anybody else, too of course) any new conclusions or thoughts on experiments maybe with the kefir or kombucha or any other thoughts are highly appreciated