The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

The Ambrosia Society was created by Don Teeter as a result of his research into Amanita Muscaria. They came to some very interesting conclusions although some of their work related to what they called 'the fleece' was later shown to be erroneous.
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The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Amanita Research » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:40 pm

http://www.entheogen-network.com/forums ... =31&t=7417

The fleece was found to be a murcor. Other tests have been done. But no tests on whether the murcor produces IA/Musicol -yet.

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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Mcpato » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:21 pm

I don't know why Don Teeter was so adamantly opposed to actual scientist's analysis and decision to call the fleece a mucor. So what? The whole thing reeks of ego to me. The truth of the matter is that he discovered an ibotenic acid producing mold of some sort that is available to anyone to cultivate for themselves. It's truly unfortunate how dismissive the world was towards Don's discovery. Mucor doesn't equal bad! It took me forever to cultivate it, but I did and can confirm that it's totally legit. The fungus used to ferment soybeans into tempeh is pretty similar to the fleece. They're, in my opinion, probably cousins. The real question we should be investigating here, is WHY does a mucor that produces ibotenic acid seemingly live inside of the amanita muscaria mushroom? Is it in symbiosis with the amanita? Is the fleece the necessary component to being able to cultivate the amanita mushroom within lab conditions? Is it actually the mucor which is responsible for the ibotenic acid/muscimol content within the amanita mushroom? To me, these are the questions we should be asking once we confirm once and for all that the fleece is what Don said it was all along.
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Amanita Research » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:57 pm

These are the conclusions I came to looking into Teeter's work. I very much want to look into the fleece and test it scientifically to see whether it does indeed produce Ibo/Muscimol. Not to doubt you, but just a 'trust but verify' kinda thing. I see a lot of people saying the same as you but have yet to test the fleece myself. Mainly after looking into murcormycosis.

If it is shown to produce Ibo/Muscimol then yes, you are exactly right. The next question would be why oh why is it producing muscimol? This opens up a whole load of doors.

But still, I do think we need a test done by a lab to confirm whether or not it contains Ibotenic Acid. That would finish the debate once and for all. May I ask, do you have an active sample? Something that could be sent to a lab?

I don't know how much such a test would cost but I'm sure we could get the money together one way or another. Thanks for your input in all this.
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Mcpato » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:36 pm

I totally understand! I think it would be wonderful to finally put to an end any doubt about it! Yes i do have spores of the fleece that could be sent to a lab! I'm very much NOT a scientist though and wouldn't know the first thing about going through those kinds of steps, but am totally willing to help! However my spores may have some contamination of other molds... Part of the reason it took me so long to cultivate the fleece was i kept getting similar looking molds growing simultaneously as well as other baddies. With my current bag of spores there may be a slight problem of some green mold that i haven't quite been able to beat yet. While i have suitable spores for my needs I'm wondering if I have to get a completely clean spore sample first? (Im working on it! Lol)
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Amanita Research » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:13 pm

We'll have to think about it. The worst thing that could happen would be we try and get a test done and then get people saying the sample was contaminated, it wasn't the right fleece and so on. It will be tricky. Whist testing a fleece might be the ideal way to go, perhaps we should aim to test one of the 'ambrosias' made purely from a fleece for ibo/musc. That way we could see if the products we are look for are even there in the first place. I imagine that this would be so even in a partially contaminated sample. Downside would be if there were other chemicals created by the murcor that had psychological effect. We may miss them in that case.

We'll have to think about this and discuss options. I'd really like to see Teeter's work to be shown to be correct (insofar as the fleece produces ibo/musc) but I would need to see hard data. To not realise it is a separate endosymbiotic species would be fair enough, it would hardly be obvious to either him or the ancient people who first encountered it. That said, how common are mucor/fungi symbiotic relationships generally? Have they been encountered before? I have no idea but it would be interesting to look into. A quick google shows me that that related species may form symbiotic relationships with plants and
also other related species are used for the industrial production of various acids and other products. So we know that these species can form symbiotic relationships (with plants) and can create various useful molecules industrially... Interesting, but yeah, we'd need to get the hard data.

Still, after all this time, why hasn't anyone taken the time to test this? I followed the post in the OP of this thread but the research kind of stopped as soon as it became clear that it was a mucor. I sent an email to the ambrosia society before setting up this forum but I never heard back from them.

Edit: May I ask, specifically, how sure are you that the fleece has ibo/musc? One of the problem I ran into was that people who were using the fleece only reported 'feeling happy' or 'know it was right'. Have you had any stronger experiences? Lucid dreams? Those visual pusling 'shockwaves' when awake? Full alternate state? Honestly curious, how far have you gone with the fleece itself?
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Mcpato » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:33 am

I just joined the ambrosia society a year ago and it was basically already dead. Yeah when I first started cultivating the fleece, I thought i had the right one in one of my first attempts. I ate it and convinced myself it was the right one, afterall it "resurrected" (barely) and it too made me "happy"... But there was no trademark amanita effects, just perhaps nootropic effects (maybe someday humankind will map ALL fungi for their effects on humans!)? Also it gave me some nausea (fleece isn't supposed to). I eventually concluded from that sample that if this was the fleece it wasnt worth my time and I wanted a much better amanita cap specimen before I gave up. A year and a few hundred dollars later I finally found 1 cap, out of almost all that I had purchased (i think I have only 1 or 2 untested caps left) that consistently produced a fast mucor that looked the way it was "supposed to". The threads on this strain were 2-3 times longer than that first "placebo" strain, and much more closely matched the descriptions on the ambrosia society's site. Now in the 3 weeks I've played with this fleece I've experienced the effects to be very close to amanita. My first isolated strain grew really well on lentils and after 4 days I cut them in small squares, marinated them in a terriyaki sauce then baked them for about an hour in the oven at about 300 degrees. After ingestion I got "amanita drunk". Clear headed, but euphoric, and definite loss of coordination. Also my wife told me to stop having fun conversations with my neighbors. I guess there was definitely some loss of inhibition that I wasn't aware of until my wife wanted me to chill and I still wanted to play. For me amanita has always made me very playful Lol. I was inebriated enough that I wouldn't have been comfortable driving.
When I grew the fleece on the tobacco and made shisha from it, I smoked it and the onset was nearly immediate. My face flushed and I could feel the begginings of a stoned state, almost identical to cannabis... Unfortunately no matter how much more I smoked it didn't get any stronger.
How certain am I it produces ibotenic acid? 100% i have also extended the inebriation by drinking my own psychoactive urine, just to make sure. I'm sure for myself, but i am only just starting experimenting with it. If anyone here wants to experience it for themselves it'd be much easier to just find a wild cap, air dry it (no heat!) Then grind it up, and mix it with some cooked, cooled barley. You'll have success much faster than i did. I'm fine if you want to wait or something. I think the world needs this, but I already have it so I'm in no rush. I want to find ways to have much stronger effects with the fleece and will work towards that as I am able to. Ive not quite had success yet making the ambrosia wine, but that is definitely on my goal list.
If I want to share my successes and failures with you guys, what would the appropriate category for me be? Thank you!
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by OctopusMcKennaii » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:18 am

WARNING!!!!!!

The fleece being a mucor means IT IS NOT AMANITA MYCELIUM OR ANYTHING AMANITA. PERIOD. DO NOT INGEST!

The "fleece" is literally mold. It is literally not amanita. I will, for the sake of what Amanita Dreamer is doing, run experiments to prove the disinformation false. All one would have to do is culture it to agar and post high-quality photos.

The fleece shown in Ambrosia Society's video is clearly mucor and not mycelial.

The first time I saw the video on my first visit to the ambrosia society I believed the fleece to be cobweb mold.

Physically the fleece appears to NOT BE fungal. It does not look like mycelium. It is not mycelium. It is mold, mucor--100%.

Let's get a mycologist to prove this for us.

Let's make a thread on the shroomery forum.

Let's spread truth and prove misinformation to be wrong. I do believe there will be a significant amount of disinformation coming in, as has happened in many communities across the internet.
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Amanita Research » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:53 am

Hey @Mcpato to, thanks for all that info. Very interesting, it sounds similar to all the other accounts that I've heard online. It's interesting to hear that your tobacco mix didn't get any stronger. Does anyone know how this compares with Amanita? I've never smoked it so have no idea. I think there is clearly something going on with the fleece but I have no idea what.

That said, @OctopusMcKennaii is right and the concerns are valid. As we know that this is a murcor, and that contamination is frequent. Given the risks related to murcormycosis people should tread very carefully. Obviously not all murcors cause murcormycosis and they are indeed used in various foodstuffs, but still, randomly ingesting murcors in highly unwise. I would suggest that no one consume the murcor or any products related to it until further research has been done. Still, I do acknowledge that certain people have used the products of the murcor and report AM related effects so I think we should look into this so we can lay it to rest, one way or another.

As such I'd suggest we track down a lab that can test for the presence of ibotenic acid and send in some samples. I'd suggest we use a water extract of some of the products of the fleece (the 'ever living bread' or similar). Obviously this must be done with a 'pure' fleece as any Amanita Muscaria would give a false positive.

If it turns out that the murcor is indeed producing Ibotenic acid then perhaps we could look into methods for confirming the presence of Ibotenic acid in some way.

But yeah, if anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears. I'd like to do this right. I think we can all agree that whatever this is, it's a murcor of some kind. The only remaining question is whether it produces ibotenic acid or if the reports of people's experiences with this are to do with some other unknown chemical. As I say, I'd like to lay this to rest once and for all.

Edit: Oh, and @Mcpato I'll make a separate board for this so we can keep all the research focused in one place. Separate forum here . I'll move this conversation there.
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Mcpato » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:20 pm

OctopusMcKennaii wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:18 am
WARNING!!!!!!

The fleece being a mucor means IT IS NOT AMANITA MYCELIUM OR ANYTHING AMANITA. PERIOD. DO NOT INGEST!

The "fleece" is literally mold. It is literally not amanita. I will, for the sake of what Amanita Dreamer is doing, run experiments to prove the disinformation false. All one would have to do is culture it to agar and post high-quality photos.

The fleece shown in Ambrosia Society's video is clearly mucor and not mycelial.

The first time I saw the video on my first visit to the ambrosia society I believed the fleece to be cobweb mold.

Physically the fleece appears to NOT BE fungal. It does not look like mycelium. It is not mycelium. It is mold, mucor--100%.

Let's get a mycologist to prove this for us.

Let's make a thread on the shroomery forum.

Let's spread truth and prove misinformation to be wrong. I do believe there will be a significant amount of disinformation coming in, as has happened in many communities across the internet.
Thanks for your input @OctopusMcKennaii , i think it would be great if you helped out in this endeavor! Mucormychosis is no joke and nobody wants that. It is important that we are careful, absolutely! That said, yes it was found to be a mucor, but more specifically it was found to be a member of the Rhizopus family which includes the widespread and delicious Tempeh mold! It is a favorite of mine! Safe to eat raw, but delicious cooked. No one is arguing with what was found, rather I'd love it if we looked into it further, specifically does this tempeh-like mold produce ibotenic acid like has been claimed. I think it does and I think it deserves another look. Mold does not equal bad.
And thank you so much @Amanita Research for being so helpful! I look forward to my interactions in this forum!
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Re: The Ambrosia Society's Fleece

Post by Splinters and Shards » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:15 am

I agree with everything that had been said so far and would like to add my own personal experiences to the discussion. I agree that the fleece has been determined to be primarily a mucor, possibly more than one species.

I have personally experimented with drinking liquid that has been sitting in a terracotta cup with the mold growing in it (the grail) and grape juice with the mold grown on top (ambrosial wine). Both have similar effects to water and juice extractions of various Amanitas.

I have noticed (especially with the cups) that drinking more water changes the effects. While Teeter addresses this, his explanation is focused on muscimol/ibotenic acid. I have not found similar effects with any Amanita extraction. I have experienced food poisoning from an unknown mold in the past that produced similar effects when large amounts of water was consumed.

I would not be surprised if further study finds that there is no muscimol or ibotenic acid present. It is quite possible there is another, perhaps similar, chemical produced by this fungus (or collection of fungi) that has similar effects. The unusual effects, which I would say is very similar to psilocybin, have happened to me with another mold. There are many molds and smuts that have potentially caused or influenced hallucinatory effects in people that have required hospitalization.

I think it more likely that there is a mold or molds that grow on or in Amanita Muscaria and similar species with their own unique constituent(s) that result in intoxication similar to the mushrooms. It may even work on the same receptors but with different effects, just as both Anandamide and Delta 9 Tetrahydrocannabinol both work on the same receptor but with different effects. Psilocybin itself does different things at the receptor site than the endogenous ligand.

I am not a research scientist or mycologist, just someone who is very interested in all of this and its implications for the benefit of humanity. These are all my own opinions based on my own experiences. I would just like to point out that instead of looking for Amanita constituents only, that perhaps there are unknown and unnamed constituents that could be discovered in these mold cultures. They may be chemically similar, they may be completely different. They may even work at different receptor sites.

Even the puffballs Lycoperdon Marginata and Mixtecorum have been reported to cause auditory hallucinations and there is no known, detectable constituent that causes this. I myself have experienced auditory hallucinations after eating Lycoperdon Marginata in large amounts. Current tests and methods of analysis may not be able to identify the actives in the fleece. I will continue to do my own personal experimentation and hope that this does come under serious scrutiny and further research.

Thank you for keeping this discussion on-topic and very informative! I hope this helps!
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