washing them?

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Re: washing them?

Post by amanitadreamer » Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:16 pm

Rebis wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:43 pm
Rebis wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:51 pm
Marv wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:50 pm
I can't say, I haven't tried. I don't wash the dirt when it is sticks too hard to the skin but hopefully they will still have good strength since the rain doesn't wash down all the actives neither...
Also go find some more, I'm sure you will find what you need !
I will. Tomorrow probably, or Saturday when early morning rain is forecast. :)

Thanks you.
Rebis.
Well, I gathered some more this afternoon :P . It was my third hunt, and I'm finding about 8 to 12 mushrooms per hunt. I spend about a couple of hours foraging, before heading back home for teatime.

I've put them in my dehydrator at the lowest temperature possible the machine can do, of 40c. I'll see how long it will takes for them to dry.
I've chosen the lowest temperature the dehydrator can do, because Teeter mentions in his book 'Amanita Muscaria; Herb of Immortality', the following:

Page 35:
Drying the herb in the sun produces a trace of a variant of Ibotenic Acid called Muscazone; this is far less less potent than Muscimol with a different affect.
Page 35:
Processing also has an effect on chemical makeup. Shaded cool drying producing more Muscimol than sun drying. Heated drying’s effect varies with temperatures, and above 130.F [about 54C] the mushroom cooks and the heat begins to breakdown these chemicals. Room temperature of up to 120.F [about 48C] seems to be about the best in my experience to me [Teeter].
Teeter also mentions on page 36:
Ibotenic Acid if exposed to ultraviolet light produces Muscazone. Muscazone has less potency than Muscimol but more than Ibotenic Acid does. It is present only in trace amounts in the herb.
The above makes me wonder if, therefore, it would be best to collect AM mushrooms that have grown in the undergrowth, in the shade, rather than the mushrooms growing in more open places? :idea:

Nearly forgot to mention - I now clean my AMs by gently scraping the mushroom top clean with a blunt knife, and then give them a final wipe with a damp sponge - it works a treat.

Best wishes,
Rebis.

Teeter's book isn't an instruction manual. He's only reporting on the traditons. See my video on lore V science.
Let me help clear up some thing for ya. Water and Amanita are not a good mix. The rain WILL wash out the actives as will rinsing them off at home and most certainly soaking them. So no water. Brush them off, pick things off of them but no water.

Drying without heat means there will be NO conversion of ibotenic acid. IF you use a dehydrator, put the heat in the temperature range I talk about in my video on drying and you will convert up to 30% of your ibo.
Right now I am getting conflicting information about sun drying converting ibo or not. But it won't cause them to be inactive while they are still in the ground.

Does that help for all of you in this thread so far? Hope so :)
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Re: washing them?

Post by Marv » Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:47 pm

It is good to be guided by what we know but we also have to consider what we don't know, which is obviously the biggest part and the most worthy of interest.
Saying muscazone is less potent than muscimole isaskingaying that muscazone is less desirable than muscimole.
Knowing that muscimole is psychoactive is not knowing how amanita muscaria's psychoactivity works.

Let's try to be humble, we know that IBO converts into MUS under certain conditions but why should we think that it is what we want ?

Maybe the effect is much greater when the conversion does not occurs before consuming ?

Maybe MUS alone is not so desirable and other substances could play a big role in the whole story ?

Do we have someone here who is experienced with eating the mushroom fresh ? How different is it from eating dried ones ?

Since IBO is poorly soluble in water, is it actually washed out by putting the fresh mushroom under cold water for a few seconds ?

Personally I prefer not washing them but also I haven't tryed to wash them and I have never heard about people saying "I washed them with water to clean the dirt and had a significant reduction of the potency".

I understand the logic but also I love surprises.

Are the amanitas grown in the shade better ? Or the sunny ones ? What is the difference between both ? I don't know. It is a great question, thanks for asking. Do we have a conscientious scientist to test on himself and figure it out ?

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Re: washing them?

Post by Rebis » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:40 pm

amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:16 pm

Teeter's book isn't an instruction manual. He's only reporting on the traditons. See my video on lore V science.
Let me help clear up some thing for ya. Water and Amanita are not a good mix. The rain WILL wash out the actives as will rinsing them off at home and most certainly soaking them. So no water. Brush them off, pick things off of them but no water.

Drying without heat means there will be NO conversion of ibotenic acid. IF you use a dehydrator, put the heat in the temperature range I talk about in my video on drying and you will convert up to 30% of your ibo.
Right now I am getting conflicting information about sun drying converting ibo or not. But it won't cause them to be inactive while they are still in the ground.

Does that help for all of you in this thread so far? Hope so :)
Okay, so no water then.

My machine's top temperature is only 70.C (158F), so just below the recomended temperature of 71.C (168.F) to convert Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol, as described in your video on drying.
How do I convert the Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol in the AMs once they are cracker dry, which my first batch now is?

I'm on a steep learning curve here. :)

Thanks.
Rebis.

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Re: washing them?

Post by amanitadreamer » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:39 pm

Rebis wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:40 pm
amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:16 pm

Teeter's book isn't an instruction manual. He's only reporting on the traditons. See my video on lore V science.
Let me help clear up some thing for ya. Water and Amanita are not a good mix. The rain WILL wash out the actives as will rinsing them off at home and most certainly soaking them. So no water. Brush them off, pick things off of them but no water.

Drying without heat means there will be NO conversion of ibotenic acid. IF you use a dehydrator, put the heat in the temperature range I talk about in my video on drying and you will convert up to 30% of your ibo.
Right now I am getting conflicting information about sun drying converting ibo or not. But it won't cause them to be inactive while they are still in the ground.

Does that help for all of you in this thread so far? Hope so :)
Okay, so no water then.

My machine's top temperature is only 70.C (158F), so just below the recomended temperature of 71.C (168.F) to convert Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol, as described in your video on drying.
How do I convert the Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol in the AMs once they are cracker dry, which my first batch now is?

I'm on a steep learning curve here. :)

Check out my video on Lemon Tek :)



Thanks.
Rebis.
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Re: washing them?

Post by amanitadreamer » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:46 pm

Marv wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:47 pm
It is good to be guided by what we know but we also have to consider what we don't know, which is obviously the biggest part and the most worthy of interest.
Saying muscazone is less potent than muscimole isaskingaying that muscazone is less desirable than muscimole.
Knowing that muscimole is psychoactive is not knowing how amanita muscaria's psychoactivity works.

Let's try to be humble, we know that IBO converts into MUS under certain conditions but why should we think that it is what we want ?

Maybe the effect is much greater when the conversion does not occurs before consuming ?

Maybe MUS alone is not so desirable and other substances could play a big role in the whole story ?

Do we have someone here who is experienced with eating the mushroom fresh ? How different is it from eating dried ones ?

Since IBO is poorly soluble in water, is it actually washed out by putting the fresh mushroom under cold water for a few seconds ?

Personally I prefer not washing them but also I haven't tryed to wash them and I have never heard about people saying "I washed them with water to clean the dirt and had a significant reduction of the potency".

I understand the logic but also I love surprises.

Are the amanitas grown in the shade better ? Or the sunny ones ? What is the difference between both ? I don't know. It is a great question, thanks for asking. Do we have a conscientious scientist to test on himself and figure it out ?

So let's take this line by line, sort of...
The science is there for a lot of your questions. You are correct, all of the associated compounds are not really well understood. What we do know is that the most active compounds are Ibo and Musc and how they interact mainly. Did you see my video on There Are Many Uses For AM? I address some of this. Especially in regards to ibotenic acid being desirable in low doses.
Ibo is not fat soluble, it is water soluble so it and musc will wash out with water. There is no difference between ones that grow in shade vs sun. I am willing to test many different ways of prep, I just need the amanita to fruit here. It is well past seasons and none yet. I am not happy about it. We know that eating it fresh will give you some effect if you only nibble tiny amounts. There's a point where the ibo causes issues. The difference is that if you heat dry you convert 30% of the ibo so you raise the ceiling on the levels of what you can consume before getting sick.
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Re: washing them?

Post by amanitadreamer » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:47 pm

Rebis wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:40 pm
amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:16 pm

Teeter's book isn't an instruction manual. He's only reporting on the traditons. See my video on lore V science.
Let me help clear up some thing for ya. Water and Amanita are not a good mix. The rain WILL wash out the actives as will rinsing them off at home and most certainly soaking them. So no water. Brush them off, pick things off of them but no water.

Drying without heat means there will be NO conversion of ibotenic acid. IF you use a dehydrator, put the heat in the temperature range I talk about in my video on drying and you will convert up to 30% of your ibo.
Right now I am getting conflicting information about sun drying converting ibo or not. But it won't cause them to be inactive while they are still in the ground.

Does that help for all of you in this thread so far? Hope so :)
Okay, so no water then.

My machine's top temperature is only 70.C (158F), so just below the recomended temperature of 71.C (168.F) to convert Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol, as described in your video on drying.
How do I convert the Ibotenic Acid to Muscimol in the AMs once they are cracker dry, which my first batch now is?

I'm on a steep learning curve here. :)

Thanks.
Rebis.
Check out my lemon tek video. We all feel your learning curve. <3
The sun never says to the Earth, "You owe me". Look what happens with a love like that. It lights up the whole sky. ~Sufi
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Community/mushroomvoice.com
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Instagram @amanitadreamer

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Re: washing them?

Post by insite » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:21 pm

Now Im just confused as A. Dreamer says dry 160 to 190f

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Re: washing them?

Post by Marv » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:15 pm

amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:46 pm
Marv wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:47 pm
It is good to be guided by what we know but we also have to consider what we don't know, which is obviously the biggest part and the most worthy of interest.
Saying muscazone is less potent than muscimole isaskingaying that muscazone is less desirable than muscimole.
Knowing that muscimole is psychoactive is not knowing how amanita muscaria's psychoactivity works.

Let's try to be humble, we know that IBO converts into MUS under certain conditions but why should we think that it is what we want ?

Maybe the effect is much greater when the conversion does not occurs before consuming ?

Maybe MUS alone is not so desirable and other substances could play a big role in the whole story ?

Do we have someone here who is experienced with eating the mushroom fresh ? How different is it from eating dried ones ?

Since IBO is poorly soluble in water, is it actually washed out by putting the fresh mushroom under cold water for a few seconds ?

Personally I prefer not washing them but also I haven't tryed to wash them and I have never heard about people saying "I washed them with water to clean the dirt and had a significant reduction of the potency".

I understand the logic but also I love surprises.

Are the amanitas grown in the shade better ? Or the sunny ones ? What is the difference between both ? I don't know. It is a great question, thanks for asking. Do we have a conscientious scientist to test on himself and figure it out ?

So let's take this line by line, sort of...
The science is there for a lot of your questions. You are correct, all of the associated compounds are not really well understood. What we do know is that the most active compounds are Ibo and Musc and how they interact mainly. Did you see my video on There Are Many Uses For AM? I address some of this. Especially in regards to ibotenic acid being desirable in low doses.
Ibo is not fat soluble, it is water soluble so it and musc will wash out with water. There is no difference between ones that grow in shade vs sun. I am willing to test many different ways of prep, I just need the amanita to fruit here. It is well past seasons and none yet. I am not happy about it. We know that eating it fresh will give you some effect if you only nibble tiny amounts. There's a point where the ibo causes issues. The difference is that if you heat dry you convert 30% of the ibo so you raise the ceiling on the levels of what you can consume before getting sick.
Yes I've seen almost all your videos and enjoyed it a lot.
I like science, I read scientific papers and that does explain things. I don't consider science more trustworthy than religion or any other story. No matter where the story comes from I have to confront it inside my own body and mind. I have to make it pass through my own science to decide if I give credit to the story or not.

At that moment I understand what the papers say about IBO and MUS. As I feel also a bit scientist I decided to give a try with fresh mushrooms that are supposed to contain only IBO. So yesterday I ate three small fresh fully opened caps (25g). Taste was light and fresh and let a strong acicidic sensation in the mouth for about an hour. Effect was subjectively different from dried AM. More electric, stronger compared to a similar dried dose. There were waves of energy running through the body and a strong sensation of presence.
The feeling was more "triptaminic" and less dissociative. No discomfort at all, no nausea, only a slight increase in salivation that was surprisingly enjoyable.

According to this experiment fresh AM has it's own "vibration" and has nothing to envy of dried AM at least at this dose. I almost preferred the effects of the fresh ones.

I have a speculation to submit :
Could the IBO decarboxilation occur naturally in contact with saliva enzymes, stomach liquids, other enzymes insides the blood circulation or even inside the cells ? Which would mean that a prior decarboxylation is not desirable since the body would do the work perfectly.

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Re: washing them?

Post by amanitadreamer » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:03 pm

Marv wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:15 pm
amanitadreamer wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:46 pm
Marv wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:47 pm
It is good to be guided by what we know but we also have to consider what we don't know, which is obviously the biggest part and the most worthy of interest.
Saying muscazone is less potent than muscimole isaskingaying that muscazone is less desirable than muscimole.
Knowing that muscimole is psychoactive is not knowing how amanita muscaria's psychoactivity works.

Let's try to be humble, we know that IBO converts into MUS under certain conditions but why should we think that it is what we want ?

Maybe the effect is much greater when the conversion does not occurs before consuming ?

Maybe MUS alone is not so desirable and other substances could play a big role in the whole story ?

Do we have someone here who is experienced with eating the mushroom fresh ? How different is it from eating dried ones ?

Since IBO is poorly soluble in water, is it actually washed out by putting the fresh mushroom under cold water for a few seconds ?

Personally I prefer not washing them but also I haven't tryed to wash them and I have never heard about people saying "I washed them with water to clean the dirt and had a significant reduction of the potency".

I understand the logic but also I love surprises.

Are the amanitas grown in the shade better ? Or the sunny ones ? What is the difference between both ? I don't know. It is a great question, thanks for asking. Do we have a conscientious scientist to test on himself and figure it out ?

So let's take this line by line, sort of...
The science is there for a lot of your questions. You are correct, all of the associated compounds are not really well understood. What we do know is that the most active compounds are Ibo and Musc and how they interact mainly. Did you see my video on There Are Many Uses For AM? I address some of this. Especially in regards to ibotenic acid being desirable in low doses.
Ibo is not fat soluble, it is water soluble so it and musc will wash out with water. There is no difference between ones that grow in shade vs sun. I am willing to test many different ways of prep, I just need the amanita to fruit here. It is well past seasons and none yet. I am not happy about it. We know that eating it fresh will give you some effect if you only nibble tiny amounts. There's a point where the ibo causes issues. The difference is that if you heat dry you convert 30% of the ibo so you raise the ceiling on the levels of what you can consume before getting sick.
Yes I've seen almost all your videos and enjoyed it a lot.
I like science, I read scientific papers and that does explain things. I don't consider science more trustworthy than religion or any other story. No matter where the story comes from I have to confront it inside my own body and mind. I have to make it pass through my own science to decide if I give credit to the story or not.

At that moment I understand what the papers say about IBO and MUS. As I feel also a bit scientist I decided to give a try with fresh mushrooms that are supposed to contain only IBO. So yesterday I ate three small fresh fully opened caps (25g). Taste was light and fresh and let a strong acicidic sensation in the mouth for about an hour. Effect was subjectively different from dried AM. More electric, stronger compared to a similar dried dose. There were waves of energy running through the body and a strong sensation of presence.
The feeling was more "triptaminic" and less dissociative. No discomfort at all, no nausea, only a slight increase in salivation that was surprisingly enjoyable.

According to this experiment fresh AM has it's own "vibration" and has nothing to envy of dried AM at least at this dose. I almost preferred the effects of the fresh ones.

I have a speculation to submit :
Could the IBO decarboxilation occur naturally in contact with saliva enzymes, stomach liquids, other enzymes insides the blood circulation or even inside the cells ? Which would mean that a prior decarboxylation is not desirable since the body would do the work perfectly.
It's not an either/or situation. The body (liver, synapses maybe) can convert ibo. It's the dosing that's at issue. It can only do so, so fast until things back up and then the toxic effects of the ibo start to creep in. I think in microdose it may matter less. Also I think Ibo is that part that gives energy. It would be beautiful that ibo is the up and musc is the down and they work in unison. I need to get my articles on ibo all together so I can look at them. I will make a video on whatever it is that I find. Thank you for saying this about ibotenic acid. I can't wait to learn more about it.
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Re: washing them?

Post by Marv » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:58 pm

Is the IBO toxic when eaten ? I thought IBO didn't pass the brain barrier ?

Effectively the waves of energy running through the body were greatly increased.

In my case almost all psychoactive plants put me in a state of trance with tremors, uncontrolled (sometimes complex) movements mostly of the head, mouth, eyes and arms growing in intensity until being possessed by different forces.
Each medicine has its own vibration but they all provoke the same phenomenon. They all give access to the invisible world and there inhabitants.

Putting on a side the scientific mind I would say that the spirits of AM are just stronger when eaten raw and fresh. They have more strength and so you have less control on them.
Effectively we could traduce that by "the fresh mushroom is more toxic".

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