Clarification on simple chemistry and ibo

[Mcpato]

Let me explain some simple science and the reason for some of the confusion. Chemical reactions are basic chemistry. The rules for a chemical reaction to take place are that it needs heat and a fluid medium. The exceptions are solid state reactions and photochemical reactions. Solid state reactions need super heat.
When discussing the conversion of ibotenic acid we are discussing a chemical reaction. When chemist discuss a chemical reaction they need to know or they simply ask, at what temperature. It is understood that heat is required. It is understood that fluid is necessary. This is why when I am asked to provide a study I can't. There is no study to show this because it is basic chemistry.
If someone wants to ask, at what heat does ibotenic acid convert then studies are numerous. It was studied until it was repeated and the same results were found. Once that happened it was accepted and from that point on, any new studies made sure to stay under the heat requirement for all controls used in the study.
As a scientist trying to help give the basic information about ibo conversion, I state the research and facts known. I leave the studies for you on the facebook page so you can see for yourself. There is nothing left to debate about this. I am not going to keep leaving links everytime I try to help or inform. Educate yourself on basic chemistry. Get familiar with the studies. If you can't read data tables or understand studies or controls and variables ask for help to understand. Debating what you don't understand is silly and a waste of time. Ask for help. Don't remain willfully ignorant. Ask. Read.
As for the loss of material when sun drying, ibotenic acid converts to muscazone using photoconversion so sunlight will do that. You will see ibo reduce but you will see a lack of muscimol because the conversion is going to muscazone.
What is up for debate at this point in the science is if there is a consistent rate of photoconversion, and what role muscazone plays in it all.
When reading studies look for flaws in the studies. In earlier studies in the 1990's there is little control over temperature when using photoconversion. Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it does. There is no mention of humidity. This definately matters. More work needs to be done in this arena.
But the heat conversion of ibo to mus has been accepted. If you want to see the studies they are on the FB page and on this forum.
Ibotenic acid conversion is miniscule up to 72C and 160F. After that it is rapid but only 30% conversion. Heat higher than 200F 90C will break the cell walls and you will lose everything. Not because heat destroyed either, but because a physical change took place. When you break the cell walls you no longer have a place for the chemical reaction to happen. All materials ooze out and are gone.
There is no conversion air drying because you need heat. I hope this is will help going forward with this so we can spend time on the things we don't know. And that is just about everything else.
In groups I see other scientists saying this same thing only to watch them get drowned out by the ignorant attacking them with disbelief and I read and I heard. They give up and go away. This is why I made my channel and why this forum exists. To be a place to say here.... this is the science. Use it. Or don't and go away and stay in magical mystical thinking.
When it comes to the chemistry of this mushroom this place will use science, not lore or disbelief or magical thinking or I heard..
If you have trouble with science, I totally understand. Ask the question. Someone will help. Tag me and I will help.
I'll make a video again on this. I didn't know when I made the others, what level of chemistry would be confusing and what level of teaching I needed to do.

[Rebis]

The rules for a chemical reaction to take place are that it needs heat and a fluid medium.

So, when we are drying the amanitas in the dehydrator at 75.C to convert the ibotenic acid to muscimol, is it the natural moister in the mushroom (along with the heat) that causes the conversion - as in the principle of needing heat and fluid for a chemical reaction?

Best.
Rebis.

[Rebis]

The rules for a chemical reaction to take place are that it needs heat and a fluid medium.

So, when we are drying the amanitas in the dehydrator at 75.C to convert the ibotenic acid to muscimol, is it the natural moister in the mushroom (along with the heat) that causes the conversion - as in the principle of needing heat and fluid for a chemical reaction?

Best.
Rebis.

Yes. Exactly that. And this is why there's only a 30% conversion because the moisture is slowly decreasing.

[Mcpato]

The rules for a chemical reaction to take place are that it needs heat and a fluid medium.

So, when we are drying the amanitas in the dehydrator at 75.C to convert the ibotenic acid to muscimol, is it the natural moister in the mushroom (along with the heat) that causes the conversion - as in the principle of needing heat and fluid for a chemical reaction?

Best.
Rebis.

Yes. Exactly that. And this is why there's only a 30% conversion because the moisture is slowly decreasing.

So then that leads me to wonder, if we saturate the mushrooms with water ((or even lemon juice??) being careful not to use too much water so the actives don't leach out) before dehydrating, there would be a higher conversion rate? How about rehydrating mid dehydration, followed by a 2nd dehydration? How high a conversion could we get, and at what point would there be too much loss during the drying process for it to be worthwhile?
Edit: or even just cooking at 70° C for a while to retain humidity prior to dehydration...

[Mcpato]

So, when we are drying the amanitas in the dehydrator at 75.C to convert the ibotenic acid to muscimol, is it the natural moister in the mushroom (along with the heat) that causes the conversion - as in the principle of needing heat and fluid for a chemical reaction?

Best.
Rebis.

Yes. Exactly that. And this is why there's only a 30% conversion because the moisture is slowly decreasing.

So then that leads me to wonder, if we saturate the mushrooms with water ((or even lemon juice??) being careful not to use too much water so the actives don't leach out) before dehydrating, there would be a higher conversion rate? How about rehydrating mid dehydration, followed by a 2nd dehydration? How high a conversion could we get, and at what point would there be too much loss during the drying process for it to be worthwhile?
Edit: or even just cooking at 70° C for a while to retain humidity prior to dehydration...

Well those are all interesting questions for sure. But really, not much point in it. If we are wanting to push decarb as much as possible then just boil and add lemon later. I wish I had a spec so I could test some. Next year with raw ones, to stop dehydration, add a bit of water and then continue to test how much decarb you got..
I know that supersaturation before drying them will leech and is not a good idea. They get very brittle too. I don't know how much lemon juice would actually get inside the cell walls to push decarb but I'm thinking not much. AND it might degrade the cell walls. No idea on that just theorizing.