Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

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Aquavitae
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Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Aquavitae » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:44 pm

Being native to the boreal regions of the Northern Hemisphere according to bibliography, Amanita muscaria is reported to be found in more southern latitudes each season. Most probably carried with tree host species being cultivated in the south andean regions of Argentina and Chile its also found in mycorrizal simbiosis with native conifers from Patagonia.

There are no reports of A. muscaria specimens being found in the patagonic regions of Argentina before 2001.

There are also reports and photographs of A. muscaria specimens being found in the south of Brasil and central region of Argentina.

In New Zealand Amanita muscaria has established mycorrizal relation with the the Nothofagus species native of the south hemisphere forests.

Isn´t it wonderful? Our favourite mushroom is conquering the world hahaha
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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Marv » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:10 pm

There are plenty of them in Colombia. As I live now in Perú I will have to search for them in my area soon or late!
Have they always been all around the world and we are just discovering it or is the mushroom conquering new regions ?? Maybe it is hard to say... We have to consider the poor interest that people had for this mushroom since the conquest of the new world by our fanatics ancestros.

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Aquavitae » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Marv wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:10 pm
There are plenty of them in Colombia. As I live now in Perú I will have to search for them in my area soon or late!
Have they always been all around the world and we are just discovering it or is the mushroom conquering new regions ?? Maybe it is hard to say... We have to consider the poor interest that people had for this mushroom since the conquest of the new world by our fanatics ancestros.
It´s true we don´t know much, or anything at all, about the use of A. muscaria in indigenous cultures of South America, in comparison to Siberia for example.

The appearance of A. muscaria seems to be recent in Patagonia, according to residents and local scientists:
http://desdelapatagonia.uncoma.edu.ar/w ... orenzo.pdf (español)

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Donn » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:27 pm

I have the impression that A. muscaria has been introduced in South America with nursery stock from the northern hemisphere. If so, has been there only a couple generations at most, and probably not at all yet in areas with strong surviving indigenous culture.
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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Marv » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:40 pm

Hum... Maybe yes.

Also the countries of south america have already forgotten their knowledge. As an example I want to remind that the use of Vilca seeds have been the fondation of almost every precolombian andean civilization like Chavín, Tiwanaku, Mochica, Inca and others but this region has suffered so much violence and profond cultural changes that only a few interested people here knows that Vilca is the name of a sacred tree which inspired the ancien cultures and religions.
In ancient andean cultures Vilca had the same importance as money can have in our modern world. We can easily imagine how cataclismic was the arrival of europeans for them if we compare to an imaginary event that would make us forget that once we used to live with money...
In the western world we consider common knowledge and basic informations to be accessible and self evident but we live far from reality. Here in Perú I live with people who know nothing about science even the most basic knowledge, nothing about ancient cultures from which they come and they are a large majority. Since the researches of western specialists are often based on informations received from local people, whom's culture has been completely destroyed, we can deduce that what we consider to be true knowledge discovered by a respected specialist is in fact an anecdote.
Objectively what we do know is nothing compared to what we don't know.

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Aquavitae » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm

Vilca (Anadenanthera colubrina) rapés use for euphoric/ecstatic purposes may have been (I´m guessing here) substituted for other more "benign" and/or rewarding sacramental medicines like San Pedro Trichocereus pachanoii cacti, specially in the andean regions where the Chavin culture developed, and dissappeared before the spanish catholic established in the Américas. Also, for euphoric effects and nutrition the coca plant leaves are much valued in that part of the Andes since ancestral times.

There is sincretism between the catholic christian doctrine and indigenous cultures cosmovisions in most of the Americas; evident for example in the names of those higher medicines like the aforementioned San Pedro.

Despite the old Leyenda Negra, spanish establishing in the Américas was not as "destroying" to preexistent cultures as other european nations colonization processes across the globe. In fact, it is well documented by historians that Indigenous peoples leaders were loyal to the spanish crown during the wars that led to the independence of many american nations. By the way, those independence processes being led by europeans and criollos themselves.

Or, take for example Gerónimo, the legendary apache military chief who was baptized, and his parents too. He was not nomad, nor lived in a tipee, nor did his parents and grandparents, because they were integrated part of the cosmovision of Spain of those times and to that of the Catholic Church. Many indigenous cultures were integrated between them in civil values using native languages.

Maybe, Gordon Wasson could never have been the first westerner to know of "los niños santos" if it were not for the spanish name (secondary) language of that woman who was María Sabina.

Also, in regards to vilca seeds been used as money, reminds of Amanita muscaria dried caps being exchanged for other goods between different groups in Siberia.
Money has always been a store of value (for they have to be dried) and a unit of excahnge.

In regards to central topic of this thread, the southernmost location where our favourite mushroom has been documented as far as I know is El Hoyo, Río Negro province in Argentina (42nd parallel south)

The final goal of the Amanita muscaria in América to establish in Tierra del Fuego and maybe who knows, even Antártida...?

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Donn » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:43 pm

Aquavitae wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:05 pm
Or, take for example Gerónimo, the legendary apache military chief who was baptized, and his parents too. He was not nomad, nor lived in a tipee, nor did his parents and grandparents, because they were integrated part of the cosmovision of Spain of those times and to that of the Catholic Church.
That doesn't seem quite right to me, I wonder if you're thinking of someone else? The Chiricahua Apaches were nomadic, though a century earlier their ancestors were farming in another part of the country. One of Geronimo's main missions in life was to kill Mexicans, out of revenge, so his integration into the Spanish cosmovision seemed somewhat imperfect. He was baptized in his 70s into the Dutch Reformed Church, not coincidentally also president Roosevelt's church, but it seems pretty clear that he didn't really buy it.

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Aquavitae » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:44 pm

It seems to be that the Apache insurrection began after the declaration of independence of México led by europeans and mestizos, and later became a long war with the USA. In 1848, USA occupied 52% of mexican territories. La Apachería was part of those territories. México and USA forced apaches back to the hunter nomadic life.

Before that, in virreinal times, when those territories were part of Spain, there seemed to be a reasonable peace.

Far from the western film cliché, Gerónimo spoke spanish, and other chiefs had spanish names: Mangas Coloradas, Victorio, Pósito Moragas, Irigoyen, Ponce, etc.

The baptism acts of Gerónimo and his parents are preserved historical documents.

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Donn » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:55 pm

I believe it was the Comanches, actually, who drove the ancestral Apaches away from the midwestern plains areas, to the southwest where they picked up the horse riding nomadic lifestyle, but the initial disruptive influence was the introduction of horses, from Spain.

I wonder what name those documents record? The theory about "Geronimo" is that Mexican peasants cried out to St Jeronimo while he was attacking them, so people started calling him that. Real name Goyaałé.

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Re: Amanita muscaria propagating towards the Southern Hemisphere

Post by Aquavitae » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:42 pm

As far as I know, Gerónimo and his parents were born in Arizpe, now estado de Sonora, México; founded by jesuit Jerónimo del Canal, and the reason why many bendokes received that name.

The first record of the Apache is from Taos 1702. In 1720 an Apache embassy was sent there to ask for permission to establish in that territory. The spanish governor gave them permission to establish in a space already populated by other indigenous groups. Maybe that´s why the conflict with the Comanche?

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