amanitadreamer wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:46 pm
What I would really like to see happen now and here on this forum, since we started as a science based place to help stop the spread of mis-information and to bring some good solid information forward, is this.... I would like to see the talk of fleece being amanita mycellium come to an end.
I don't think anyone disagrees with you there. I'm definitely in the fleece as mold camp.
I would like the use of the word "believe" in relation to it, to stop, in favor of, the fleece IS mold. It's been tested, it is mold. In this way we can start to move forward. It's my opinion that that's why AS died out. Once the science got involved and showed the fleece wasn't the resurrected "body" of the christ (the mushroom) it's like the science based people left and the magical thinkers sort of knew inside something magical had died. And it needed to so that it could all move forward.
It's not that I don't agree with you here, but DO we have the science? My own subjective experiments point to it being very much a mold, in fact it appears similar in many ways to the Tempeh mold, but I've only heard rumors of the fleece being lab tested, and I've never seen any documents, or even references on who might have the research. I, like you, want to get past the uncertainty, but the fact is we are uncertain about a lot of things surrounding this mold, because as far as I've found, the Ambrosia Society is the only one interested enough to do any work on it, now they are most likely gone for good. Then there are people like me who aren't members of the AS or mycologists, but can see obvious value when others only see fear. We can experiment to see what is possible, and will happily share our discoveries with the world... but it does feel disingenuous to say "we know", especially if we actually start believing it enough that we decide we never need look any deeper. Maybe I'm playing devils advocate, but I don't mean to. I haven't seen any science whatsoever, again only rumors...
To me you don't have to choose between magical thinking and science. All of this is magical to me. Fungi are magical beings. But the magic should stay in the ethereal, the emotional and the wonder. And the facts, the growing, how it grows, how it multiplies, should stay in the science. THAT it is wonderous shouldn't be changed by understanding the science of it. And like you said, the benefits of a mold that only grows on amanita, OR the only mold that amanita makes, there's something beautiful there, and indeed resurrecting. Let's work to understand the science, not use words like "believe" when we have the science, and let's set statements and boundaries for that moving forward. Let's clear the past and work to find what now....
For me the questions are these...
What role did grapes play in this mold?
Don Teeter spent a lot of time exploring this, and theorized that the ambrosia made from the grapes was actually the first purposely cultivated ancient wine, perhaps even the reason why wine was so important in the ancient world. I know many who aren't familiar with the fleece in the least would roll their eyes at the thought since we "know" that wine is made from alcohol, but there is strong precedent to examine the theory more deeply, which he does go into in his book. First, the psychoactive effect is superior to wine, at least that is how most feel when they experience it, including me. 2nd, ancient texts often recommend adding water to wine. With ambrosia this somehow strengthens it's psychoactive effects, while with alcoholic wine it diminishes it's effects.
Can other foods do the same?
I have yet to find a food that the fleece does not grow upon. Different techniques need to be used to help the mold along, but from meat, to dairy, to all manner of vegetation I've had success.
Are there actually mind altering substances in this mold?
the only reason I can tell that there is any debate about the psychoactivity whatsoever in the fleece is that there is a strong aversion for people to try it before the science dictates it is safe. No question that it is psychoactive. Is it ibotenic acid? It feels similar to me but i wouldn't at all be surprised if it was some analogue. It also passes in the urine to be "recycled" if wished, to great effect. Seriously, if anyone wants to see for themselves it's easy to start, just don't make the mistake most beginners make and start with tying to make ambrosia. Start with the living bread so the mold will be clean, THEN make the wine.
I'm dedicated to helping anyone at all, and have shown what I've learned in these forums as well! Is it safe? I believe anyone with a healthy immune system would find it is safe, and drying the bread at a high enough heat to neutralize the spores AND covert it to muscimol (or it's analogue?) would be more than sufficient to remove all doubt. A. Pantherina derived fleece has the same psychoactive effect, but an added toxin that hurts the internal organs if taken. It isn't more potent than Muscaria fleece so I don't work with it anymore. I'm fairly certain other varieties of amanita would have psychoactive fleece as well, and look forward to experimenting as i get specimens to work with!
What are all the ways this mold can be grown?
Ambrosia, living bread, psychoactive tempeh (beans, soybeans, chickpeas, etc.), the "grail" including my "reverse grail" have all shown success. These have been my main areas of experimentation and I look forward to anyone's ingenious suggestions! This is like a new frontier. Many exciting experiments are currently being done using the koji mold, like vegan "sausages" that i believe coukd be done with the fleece with exciting effect! We need adventurous explorers to experiment and unlock its untapped potential! Imagine psychoactive steaks and sausages, or miso, ect!
Can mold grow on other amanitas? Other fungi? Other foods?
I believe so!
To me, these are the questions that would really help move all this forward. Am I forgetting any?
these are a great starting place in my opinion!
I realize this will rule out the magical hope that you, whoever the you is, will be world famous for discovering something completely contrary to modern science and that you will be famous in all circles for solving anciet mysteries but there isn't an ancient mystery or something acting outside science to find. And maybe someday this place will be pointless. Hopefully we will learn all there is to know about our amanita and it will be common knowledge for the masses who use it well and in friendship with the mycellium. That's sort of the end goal here, spreading education and information, eventually, we should reach the end and maybe we just become of place of amanita worship all over again, coming full circle.
I love the amanita mushroom and I love the fleece. There is so much to explore and discover here, I doubt it's going away anytime soon, but rest assured I'm not interested in any acclaim or prestige from my work with the fleece, I only believe it is more than worthy of our sincerest attention to unravel it's rightful place in our lives. It has been a major blessing for me and I don't doubt many others would arrive at the same conclusions and greater if the fleece were lifted out of obscurity. I appreciate all your work
@amanitadreamer and thank you for bringing this to the public's eye. I think I really want to pick up the torch that Donald Teeter dropped and further this cause in my own way, since there didn't seem to be anyone else wanting to do it. We are all on the same team here, and I recognize the importance of moving forward in scientific ways. Hopefully more scientists will agree and feel motivated to help! Thank you so much!