Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

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sb_stefan
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Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by sb_stefan » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:44 pm

In Amanita Dreamer's videos she claims there's a certain temperature threshold (around 160°F) for converting Ibotanic acid to Muscimol. Can someone present a scientific source to support this claim? I've searched without success. Thank you.

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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by tgt1002 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 pm

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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by Matt » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:10 am

tgt1002 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 pm
https://patents.justia.com/patent/8784835
This has me thinking that sous vide cooking would have something to offer here. In her preparation video Amanita Dreamer says to simmer 15g of Amanita caps in 1 cup of water for 20 - 30 minutes. While I appreciate the instruction, this can be wildly varying temps for people with different stoves, pots, and even different altitudes. What sous vide provides is a way to set a water temperature exactly where you want it. So if the optimum temp for ibotenic acid conversion to muscimol is 195F you can just set your sous vide cooker to that and it will tell you when the water is ready to go.
In order to have the 15g of Amanita to 1 cup of water I would do this:

- freeze 1 cup of water. this could be one giant chunk or separate ice cubes if that's easier
- place frozen water and 15g of mushrooms in vacuum sealer bag
- vacuum seal the water and mushrooms together
- fill a large pot with water, however much it takes to cover your mushroom+ice bag
- the mushroom+ice bag will float so you'll need something heavy sitting on top of it to keep it submerged in your sous vide bath
- leave it for however long you want. If you want to hold it at that temp for 24 hours, you can do so with sous vide.
- When it's done you now have exactly 1 cup of Amanita infused water in that bag. None has evaporated because you sealed it.

Unless I'm missing something and you want some part of the stovetop method to boil or evaporate some other chemicals out of the Amanita, would this not be a rather precise way to decarb ibotenic acid into muscimol?
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by tgt1002 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:22 am

The boiling temp is above the conversion threshold and below the destruction threshold for the actives the reason you cant dry too hot is liquid leaks out with the actives as well as burning the shrooms. I love experiments but you are over complicating this do some simple runs then go nuts overcomplicating it if I ask me
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by amanitadreamer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:06 am

Matt wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:10 am
tgt1002 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:31 pm
https://patents.justia.com/patent/8784835
This has me thinking that sous vide cooking would have something to offer here. In her preparation video Amanita Dreamer says to simmer 15g of Amanita caps in 1 cup of water for 20 - 30 minutes. While I appreciate the instruction, this can be wildly varying temps for people with different stoves, pots, and even different altitudes. What sous vide provides is a way to set a water temperature exactly where you want it. So if the optimum temp for ibotenic acid conversion to muscimol is 195F you can just set your sous vide cooker to that and it will tell you when the water is ready to go.
In order to have the 15g of Amanita to 1 cup of water I would do this:

- freeze 1 cup of water. this could be one giant chunk or separate ice cubes if that's easier
- place frozen water and 15g of mushrooms in vacuum sealer bag
- vacuum seal the water and mushrooms together
- fill a large pot with water, however much it takes to cover your mushroom+ice bag
- the mushroom+ice bag will float so you'll need something heavy sitting on top of it to keep it submerged in your sous vide bath
- leave it for however long you want. If you want to hold it at that temp for 24 hours, you can do so with sous vide.
- When it's done you now have exactly 1 cup of Amanita infused water in that bag. None has evaporated because you sealed it.

Unless I'm missing something and you want some part of the stovetop method to boil or evaporate some other chemicals out of the Amanita, would this not be a rather precise way to decarb ibotenic acid into muscimol?

You're confusing drying temperatures with boiling temps in prep later. Drying at heat is for converting that 30% and for storage. You want conversion but not to break cell walls because you want to store it.
Boiling is to further convert and breaking cell walls is fine, it's what you want because you're in the prep stages at that point.
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by Matt » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:37 am

amanitadreamer wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:06 am
You're confusing drying temperatures with boiling temps in prep later. Drying at heat is for converting that 30% and for storage. You want conversion but not to break cell walls because you want to store it.
Boiling is to further convert and breaking cell walls is fine, it's what you want because you're in the prep stages at that point.
What I meant was to dry like normal, but instead of boiling in water, use sous vide to heat the already dried Amanita to a very specific temperature. Putting the Amanita and water into a vacuum sealed bag would even let you heat it sous vide and then just freeze the whole bag to preserve it. Any reason this wouldn't work?
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by tgt1002 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:39 am

If I am not mistaken. Once it is dry heating does not appear to cause further conversion. The actives must be in solution for further conversion.
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by amanitadreamer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:01 am

Matt wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:37 am
amanitadreamer wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:06 am
You're confusing drying temperatures with boiling temps in prep later. Drying at heat is for converting that 30% and for storage. You want conversion but not to break cell walls because you want to store it.
Boiling is to further convert and breaking cell walls is fine, it's what you want because you're in the prep stages at that point.
What I meant was to dry like normal, but instead of boiling in water, use sous vide to heat the already dried Amanita to a very specific temperature. Putting the Amanita and water into a vacuum sealed bag would even let you heat it sous vide and then just freeze the whole bag to preserve it. Any reason this wouldn't work?
Conversion happens in a liquid medium at temperatures above 165F and below 284F. Whatever it is you want to do, use those parameters and you will convert 30%. If you dried at heat that was 30%. Lemon will convert 30% or any acid pH 3.5 or lower.
Freezing will preserve it, yes.
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by Matt » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:11 am

amanitadreamer wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:01 am
Conversion happens in a liquid medium at temperatures above 165F and below 284F. Whatever it is you want to do, use those parameters and you will convert 30%. If you dried at heat that was 30%. Lemon will convert 30% or any acid pH 3.5 or lower.
Freezing will preserve it, yes.
Is there any difference in quality of conversion for temps between 165F and 284F? If one were so inclined you could sous vide for 1 hour at 170F, 1 hour at 180F, and 1 hour at 190F. But would there be any point in doing so, or would the low end of the temperature range work just as well?

Is there any benefit to exceeding 1 hour in that temperature range?
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Re: Can someone present a reliable scientific source for conversion temperature?

Post by amanitadreamer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:34 pm

Matt wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:11 am
amanitadreamer wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:01 am
Conversion happens in a liquid medium at temperatures above 165F and below 284F. Whatever it is you want to do, use those parameters and you will convert 30%. If you dried at heat that was 30%. Lemon will convert 30% or any acid pH 3.5 or lower.
Freezing will preserve it, yes.
Is there any difference in quality of conversion for temps between 165F and 284F? If one were so inclined you could sous vide for 1 hour at 170F, 1 hour at 180F, and 1 hour at 190F. But would there be any point in doing so, or would the low end of the temperature range work just as well?

Is there any benefit to exceeding 1 hour in that temperature range?
See the research that TGT left above and see the Austin Patent... Also go to the science pages on this forum and see the post for almost all the articles he found on amanita in one post. And search the other posts and lists.
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