Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

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Paulhedges27
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Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Paulhedges27 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:27 am

Hi all,

Someone on a Facebook mushroom group I'm in in basically contradicts all the science beliefs of Amanita Dreamer.

Namely that ibotenic acid is highest when the mushroom is in Young stage growth phase and that drying at high temperatures causes loss of potency.

She sent me a conversion table to illustrate this.

Please have a look at this and discuss/dispute/corroborate.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Paulhedges27 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:42 am

Take a look.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Donn » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:27 am

For the full original research report, Change in Ibotenic Acid and Muscimol Contents in Amanita muscaria during Drying, Storing or Cooking. Anyone read Japanese?

It depends on what you want. From 50° to 80°, they got pretty fair conversion to muscimol. In that range, if you want the least residual ibotenic acid, 80°C is the way to go. If you like ibotenic acid, then you'd want to rethink the whole conversion thing.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Paulhedges27 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:42 am

Thanks Donn.

Would I be correct in thinking that this person is misinterpreting the data from that Japanese study.

Her belief is to dry at between 35-40°C I believe. So as not to damage the entheogens. A term which is broad spectrum and non-specific. By drying at that temp you achieve next to no conversion of ibotenic to Muscimol in the initial drying phase.

The conversion table of drying temps and times in this study is in parts per million so it's not actually being extrapolated properly to give a clear picture overall.

I'm trying to formulate a detailed response.

Any further help here is appreciated guys.

Thanks.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Donn » Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:46 pm

I don't right off hand see any problem with her version of the table, it's just condensed from the original, but then I don't understand your issue with the ppm units. I wish I could read the text. Of course between fresh and dry state, the material loses a lot of water, and to be useful, the reported value for fresh has to factor that out. That could be what they mean by "The value was reduced to the raw weight."

Beyond that, I don't know anything about her interpretation but what you report. If she's saying that we lose something in higher heat process, she's right. If the process simply converted ibotenic acid to muscimol, then two would add up to the same value in each different trial, as it's a one to one conversion. As you can see, they don't, and the higher the heat, the lower the total, so the process also breaks down both of them into other products.

Her summarized version of course fails to represent the degree of variation in the results, variation that seems pretty large to me, but nothing I notice in that variation is contradictory. It's just something to bear in mind when you read that this or that process will give you X percent conversion. Let's say you can hope for some conversion, and X might give you a very rough idea of how much.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Paulhedges27 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:42 pm

Thanks Donn.

My main issue with this person is that her preparation advice is to dry at under 40°c then store for 2 months or something like that.

This is directly contrary to Amanita Dreamer's protocol to dehydrate at heat to achieve up to 30% IBO conversion rate. Drying at temps under 50°C for example will not achieve any relevant conversion.

I mentioned the ppm as I was reminded that with that other Japanese study paper which examined ibotenic levels at various stages of mushroom growth maturity, the data seems to show that the highest level of IBO is when the cap is young and in unopened button stage, but the data needs to be extrapolated to account for each metric being in ppm, when doing so with the maths equations it will actually show that overall peak IBO concentrations are when the cap is flat.

Going back to the original linked study, yes there is some degradation of constituents when heat is applied, the action of heat will denature but overall we are looking for that up to 30% IBO to Muscimol conversion. How does the Austin Patent method relate to this study?

@amanitadreamer what do you think, if you get time to jump in here.

I want to debunk this person in the mushroom group but want to do so carefully.

Thanks all.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Donn » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:09 pm

Paulhedges27 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:42 pm
This is directly contrary to Amanita Dreamer's protocol to dehydrate at heat to achieve up to 30% IBO conversion rate. Drying at temps under 50°C for example will not achieve any relevant conversion.
Clearly the objective differs, right?
  • If your purpose is to eliminate as much of the ibotenic acid as possible, more heat.
  • If it's to preserve as much of both as possible - ibotenic acid and muscimol - then less heat.
but the data needs to be extrapolated to account for each metric being in ppm, when doing so with the maths equations it will actually show
Still don't get it.
but overall we are looking for that up to 30% IBO to Muscimol conversion.
Then you stick with the process that's focused on that goal. That's your objective, and some others' - but not everyone's. If you think the other objectives are misguided, to convince anyone you will have to present some evidence that they really shouldn't want ibotenic acid.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by sb_stefan » Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:59 pm

Donn wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:27 am
For the full original research report, Change in Ibotenic Acid and Muscimol Contents in Amanita muscaria during Drying, Storing or Cooking. Anyone read Japanese?

It depends on what you want. From 50° to 80°, they got pretty fair conversion to muscimol. In that range, if you want the least residual ibotenic acid, 80°C is the way to go. If you like ibotenic acid, then you'd want to rethink the whole conversion thing.
This is not what Amanita Dreamer claims.. She says there is a hard cut off point somewhere around 70 C and that no conversion at all is taking place below that. Seems like a lot of guess work everywhere unfortunately.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by amanitadreamer » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:51 pm

Paulhedges27 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:27 am
Hi all,

Someone on a Facebook mushroom group I'm in in basically contradicts all the science beliefs of Amanita Dreamer.

Namely that ibotenic acid is highest when the mushroom is in Young stage growth phase and that drying at high temperatures causes loss of potency.

She sent me a conversion table to illustrate this.

Please have a look at this and discuss/dispute/corroborate.
I leave the studies and links in videos where I discuss them. I see this same problem so much that I quit commenting on it. People who don't know how to read and interpret data are doing this. I don't blame them, I just don't have time to be a science teacher. I just say, you're not reading the data properly and move on.
Firstly the study that states ibo content of a developing mushroom, it is parts per million. As the mushroom develops, that number SHOULD go down because the "parts" part is increasing. But when you crunch the numbers as actual amounts vs weight, you find the amount increases. They did NOT crunch those numbers in the study for one important reason that if you're in science, you should know and it's a problem. Scientists get dogmatic and tend to just do industry standards when analyzing data and ppm is a fan favorite. However, in this case it doesn't move into practicality or use very well. And since they are scientists and probably not users, they didn't even think to use those numbers. A friend of mine and the first person added to this forum, named Neelun did crunch those numbers and has a photo of his tables and math. He's smart, I trust his work and his findings are what I reported.
Degrade active ingredients can be problematic, do you mean degrade ibotenic acid? And are you certain you mean decarboxylate or do you mean degrade? And this is why words are important to scientists. If this person means degrade then they are saying to completely destroy ibotenic acid which is far different than converting it to muscimol. The beginning temperature of degradation of ibotenic acid is 212F and even then some of it is to decarb to muscimol. BUT you can begin the conversion at much lower temperatures, like 165 to 170. At those temps you won't break the cell walls. Above 190 to 200 you risk cell walls breaking. AND again, this is chemistry and if this person has taken chemistry they would understand these terms, these ranges and how decarboxylation works, and then if they did rudimentary reading into ibotenic acid they would know that this is a simple single atom decarboxylation which "should" happen at room temperature if ibotenic acid were sitting alone in a beaker, but when insulated inside chitin walls of a mushroom , need higher temps.
I know you can't put this in a susinct way but it's not your problem to teach people chemistry. And I've found that when you do try to explain it, they take up a lot of your time asking more and more questions because they don't understand chemistry OR how to read data. Again, I'm not being elitist, I just don't have time to be a teacher of chemistry. They need to take it upon themselves to go learn basic chemistry before making data tables and posting them publicly making bad statements and misleading people. I don't want to be an asshole so I walk away.
In the Austin patent and in studies done in the 2000's dried at room temperature is used as a control in studies BECAUSE little to no conversion happens.
Sitting at room temp after drying you get VERY minimal conversion, like less than 5%. Why? Because you need a fluid medium for that kind of chemical reaction to happen. It will still happen but it will be so slow that it takes a year to even start to see a decrease in ibotenic acid and several years for a complete conversion. Again this is simple basic chemistry. Not being a dick, just reiterating that most questions people have can be solved by teaching themselves some basics that everyone should know as an adult anyway, and that sadly most schools do not require.
YouTube has some amazing chemistry teachers BTW for any of you who would like to become familiar and if you are questioning data and diving deeper into conversion perhaps you like chemistry and would find it interesting.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by amanitadreamer » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Paulhedges27 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:42 am
Take a look.
This person is using sun drying here and I dont think they are aware that this only works on European ones. The american ones don't do photoconversion. Also, photoconversion converts ibo to muscazone, not muscimol. Also They are putting sun, heater and oven together on the same chart, very bad data compilation when I can't have access to ALL the data to put it in perspective. Also using an oven causes all kinds of problems and I would need to be reading the conclusions part of the study to see if they discuss loss of product there. Tables are absolutely no good without the entire study in tact. I don't doubt her transfer of data to a table, it's just that it is out of context and I wouldn't give this my time, not because I don't respect what she's doing but because it's missing all the exact things she herself is missing.
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