Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by amanitadreamer » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:12 pm

Paulhedges27 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:42 pm
Thanks Donn.

My main issue with this person is that her preparation advice is to dry at under 40°c then store for 2 months or something like that.

This is directly contrary to Amanita Dreamer's protocol to dehydrate at heat to achieve up to 30% IBO conversion rate. Drying at temps under 50°C for example will not achieve any relevant conversion.

I mentioned the ppm as I was reminded that with that other Japanese study paper which examined ibotenic levels at various stages of mushroom growth maturity, the data seems to show that the highest level of IBO is when the cap is young and in unopened button stage, but the data needs to be extrapolated to account for each metric being in ppm, when doing so with the maths equations it will actually show that overall peak IBO concentrations are when the cap is flat.

Going back to the original linked study, yes there is some degradation of constituents when heat is applied, the action of heat will denature but overall we are looking for that up to 30% IBO to Muscimol conversion. How does the Austin Patent method relate to this study?

@amanitadreamer what do you think, if you get time to jump in here.

I want to debunk this person in the mushroom group but want to do so carefully.

Thanks all.
Most mushroom groups I have been in, especially on FB are very hateful and ignorant. And unfortunately even people with "some" science education are still woefully ignorant and it's mindboggling acutally. Like, did you not take chemistry and did you not pay attention becuase what you are saying is not how science works. I actually had to part ways with someone who professes to have a masters degree in a science based field and their science is just bad all over the place. Even questioned myself and had other chemists look at it and yes, they agreed that this person's science was fucked up. There ARE people in this world who play pretend and profess degrees they don't have. Or maybe they have mental illness and were not functional when they took classes, or like, me due to years of panic or drug use have lost some ability to DO science, whatever. Personally I used a lot of chemists to back up all of my reading data before I made a video simply because of the brain damage. There are flat out science deniers. My point here is that for a whole year I stayed in those groups trying to educate and only rarely did anyone actually learn anything. Mostly these are what happened in the face of my clarity of the data:
1. Name calling
2. Threats to block or ban me
3. "But I don't understand, that doesn't make sense"
4. But the ambrosia society says...., but shroomery says.....

For your mental health let me say, if you intend to try to educate you need to know your science AND you need to be able to wade through the bullshit headed your way. I don't mean to discourage you but when faced with people like this who want to work the data but have little to no education, rarely do they actually listen probably because they are embarassed to be confronted and their ignorance exposed. It is rare that people really want to learn. And people with science backgrounds learned early on, it's not about you or your ego, but about the science. They take logic classes and learn how to remove their personal investment in the outcome, that is an integral part of science.
Those groups are like a cesspool of willfully ignorant ego sinking sick people. And I really cared way too much and it almost did me in. Leaving them was sad but also something I had to do so I warn you here just in case...
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by Donn » Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:33 pm

amanitadreamer wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:51 pm
Degrade active ingredients can be problematic, do you mean degrade ibotenic acid? And are you certain you mean decarboxylate or do you mean degrade? And this is why words are important to scientists. If this person means degrade then they are saying to completely destroy ibotenic acid which is far different than converting it to muscimol. The beginning temperature of degradation of ibotenic acid is 212F and even then some of it is to decarb to muscimol.
The table presented here shows this phenomenon in the 3rd column of the "oven" trials, where the oven is set to 80°C (176°F). The second row is percent of original amount in the raw samples, and at 80° the surviving ibotenic acid has precipitously dropped to 17%, without a corresponding improvement in the muscimol conversion product. Therefore, some significant amount of ibotenic acid has been converted to something else (I wouldn't say "completely destroyed", it's just a product that is neither muscimol nor ibotenic acid.)

It might be useful to refer to the original, to look at the actual amount of isoxalones rather than the percentages - the initial amount of ibotenic acid is of course much greater than the muscimol, which is totally obscured when presented as percent remaining. The way I add up the average results, the oven trials preserve the following percent of total isoxalones: 40° 72% ... 50° 69% ... 60° 61% ... 80° 24%.
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Re: Dispute with drying temps and times in relation to potency!

Post by amanitadreamer » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:34 pm

Donn wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:33 pm
amanitadreamer wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:51 pm
Degrade active ingredients can be problematic, do you mean degrade ibotenic acid? And are you certain you mean decarboxylate or do you mean degrade? And this is why words are important to scientists. If this person means degrade then they are saying to completely destroy ibotenic acid which is far different than converting it to muscimol. The beginning temperature of degradation of ibotenic acid is 212F and even then some of it is to decarb to muscimol.
The table presented here shows this phenomenon in the 3rd column of the "oven" trials, where the oven is set to 80°C (176°F). The second row is percent of original amount in the raw samples, and at 80° the surviving ibotenic acid has precipitously dropped to 17%, without a corresponding improvement in the muscimol conversion product. Therefore, some significant amount of ibotenic acid has been converted to something else (I wouldn't say "completely destroyed", it's just a product that is neither muscimol nor ibotenic acid.)

It might be useful to refer to the original, to look at the actual amount of isoxalones rather than the percentages - the initial amount of ibotenic acid is of course much greater than the muscimol, which is totally obscured when presented as percent remaining. The way I add up the average results, the oven trials preserve the following percent of total isoxalones: 40° 72% ... 50° 69% ... 60° 61% ... 80° 24%.
Sorry it has taken me so damn long. Fall and into winter are very busy seasons for me. I am just now getting to making a video on the data because this keeps coming up and like in this thread, people quote me wrongly, etc....
What you say here is why I chose to state that drying at 165 is the optimal temp. And also, most dehydrators don't go higher than 165 so it was perfect, a good balance between gaining conversion and loss of product and where the temps are capable of in most dehydrators.
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