Soma's Return

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amanitadreamer
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Re: Soma's Return

Post by amanitadreamer » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:17 pm

researcher22 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:30 pm
Mcpato wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:24 pm
How much ibotenic acid/muscimol is lost from the drying process of the amanita? Would making a tea from a fresh mushroom be many times more potent because of the lack of loss from drying? Sure it would mostly be ibotenic acid... But that is a moot point anymore right?
From Tsunoda's "Changes In Ibotenic Acid" paper as best I can understand it appears that drying destroys 95% of the ibotenic acid and converts 5%. This is a shocking high amount of destruction! I find these papers a bit difficult to understand, but that is what it appears. If I'm understanding this correctly that makes me suspect that fresh mushroom that was never heated and only used with GAD fermentation would produce a lot of muscimol.

However, fresh mushroom is not easy to come by as it will not be fresh for long. I suppose one could instead pick the mushrooms and immediately put them in jars with the fermenting bacteria. Then, later the mushroom could be removed and the resulting liquid could be stored. It may not go bad due to the high lactic acid content.

The mushroom may not even need to be removed. The issue is getting sufficient lactic acid content by having high levels of lactic acid forming bacteria in the fermentation process. If I understand from the patent ingesting the mushroom may not be good though as we cannot digest that fiber. Though, people often don't worry about mushrooms fiber, so I'm not sure.
Mcpato wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:24 pm
I know that sanitization is a concern, but the fermentation process is a purifying process, and the cultures we want will almost certainly outpace any "bad" things. Personally I would probably feel safe consuming raw amanita fermented in raw milk until a yogurt like state was achieved, but thats just me... So much potential to explore here. Not just strength of Soma but flavors as well. I hope people will help us explore the possibilities of Soma!
The question I have is about skipping the tea process and just putting the dried mushroom right into fermentation. This may give higher yields because it skips another destructive stage of conversion. As far as I can tell GAD fermentation is not destructive. I think the heator acid and additive process may not be necessary at all because I think the GAD can convert just fine by itself much better than the rather brute force approach of using heat. The heating / acid/ drying was used to convert because it skipped using any GAD fermentation. GAD fermentation was my preferred choice from reading the patent.

In order to do GAD fermentation I do not think raw milk needs to be used; no milk at all. Just something with lots of lactic acid producing bacteria. There are many fermented food products that use lactic acid bacteria. One can also easily buy lactic acid fermenting bacteria at the pharmacy. These bacteria do not need milk to grow. A single capsule can have 20 billion colony forming units. These bacteria only need sugar to grow and that sugar doesn't have to be lactose. It can be sucrose.

So, you could probably take a bunch of this lactic acid bacteria. Pour it into a 32 oz mason jar with spring water 3/4 full which is free of chlorine and chloramine. Melt 1/4 cup of sugar on the stove into the water first. Add a pinch of baking soda or sea salt for minerals. Give it 48 to 72 hours to grow and eat up the sugar so it grows in numbers. Then add the dried mushroom so there is lots of healthy bacteria in there first so nothing goes bad from whatever bacteria is on the mushroom. Give the good bacteria a big head start. This is a starter culture. There will already be high levels of lactic acid in there to inhibit bad bacteria.

Then, however long it takes for the GAD to do its work. I know the patent had a specific time, but it was temperature incubated higher than room temperature to speed it up. I thought it would make sense to powder the mushroom, but amanita dreamer does not say to do that, and also you will end up eating the mushroom fiber, which the patent says can cause indigestion. I'm not exactly sure when/why this happens as people eat mushrooms all the time. So, I need some clarification on that. Also, removing the mushroom may preserve the liquid better. But, this liquid will go bad. But, if you compare this to things like Kimchi, I'm reading that can last 2-3 years in the fridge, so this may last that long too.

Other than using bacteria purchased from the pharmacy one could also use a more traditional source like water kefir grains. This can be bought from many sources and the process is just the same. Water kefir is also supposed to be very beneficial and "kefir" means "feel good" in Turkish. These bacteria and yeast in water kefir may be beneficial for proper immune and neurological function.

The only other issue I have with not making a tea out of the dried mushroom is concern for anything that could be in that mushroom. Do they have parasites or anything else nasty living in there. For certain things the lactic acid and the healthy bacteria could kill that stuff off, but for others perhaps not.

Either way, I would very much like to try using water kefir instead of raw milk to try to make soma. Again, my big question is do we really need to be making the dried mushroom into tea first? I think the GAD can convert by itself based on the patent. I don't think the Vedas talk about making tea first either.
Drying only converts less than 15% if not done at high enough heat. That would convert only 30%. Your references to Tsunoda should update to the Austin Patent since it proves these and more recently and disproves most of Tsunoda's findings. That study was also not done with exact temparatures and measurements but approximations and hasn't been repeatable.

I did use a dried mushroom body and all it did was go bad fast. X1
I experimented with using cold tea and cold milk and it failed. X2
I experimented with heating the tea and using cold milk and it failed. X2
I used room temparature milk and hot tea and it was successful. X3
I poured it in jars that were sterilized with boiling water.
The tea is the first filter of Soma.

Converting using lacto and all these methods you discuss are all things I hope folks do and it would run on the basis of the Austin Patent and would be good for vegans too.
It wouldn't be what I assert is SOMA but learning to convert almost all of it is important and in all the ways available I think.
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Re: Soma's Return

Post by AmanitaN00b » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:31 pm

I'd be interested in a "Vegan Soma" 🥰

What's the chance, @amanitadreamer would you work out how to make a Vegan Soma and share the process with us?🙏
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Re: Soma's Return

Post by researcher22 » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:36 am

If boiling does not destroy any ibotenic acid/muscimol, then I guess there is no reason to skip it in favor of just using GAD fermentation.

However, if boiling does destroy ibotenic acid/muscimol, then the way to prevent the dried mushroom from going bad would be to start the fermentation process before adding the mushroom. This is how fermentation is done when there is a desire to ferment without using salt. The salt would normally inhibit the bad bacteria while the good bacteria have time to grow and produce the lactic acid. However, if one does not want to add salt, or does not want to boil, then starting a sterile jar with spring water and dextrose until high numbers of the bacteria multiply and lactic acid increases may prevent the dried mushroom from going bad fast. It would have to be tried.

As far as I can understand this should have the same effect as the original soma method that uses dairy and/or also includes boiling the tea first. The method is different, but I am not aware of a different outcome. I guess it would have to be tried to confirm. But, again, if it is wrong that boiling the tea destroys anything, then by all means I say boil just to sterilize and kill anything.

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Re: Soma's Return

Post by amanitadreamer » Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:49 pm

researcher22 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 2:36 am
If boiling does not destroy any ibotenic acid/muscimol, then I guess there is no reason to skip it in favor of just using GAD fermentation.

However, if boiling does destroy ibotenic acid/muscimol, then the way to prevent the dried mushroom from going bad would be to start the fermentation process before adding the mushroom. This is how fermentation is done when there is a desire to ferment without using salt. The salt would normally inhibit the bad bacteria while the good bacteria have time to grow and produce the lactic acid. However, if one does not want to add salt, or does not want to boil, then starting a sterile jar with spring water and dextrose until high numbers of the bacteria multiply and lactic acid increases may prevent the dried mushroom from going bad fast. It would have to be tried.

As far as I can understand this should have the same effect as the original soma method that uses dairy and/or also includes boiling the tea first. The method is different, but I am not aware of a different outcome. I guess it would have to be tried to confirm. But, again, if it is wrong that boiling the tea destroys anything, then by all means I say boil just to sterilize and kill anything.
Simmering/boiling won't destroy ibo or muscimol.
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Re: Soma's Return

Post by researcher22 » Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:26 am

I would really like to do a dairy free option because I really think dairy is bad for intestinal permeability and health issues, it could also contribute to indigestion in the immediate term after taking, which I would like to avoid. I do not consume dairy as part of my diet for these reasons.

So, that raises the question of either using the old method of the decoction without fermentation, perhaps even decocted with lemon juice, and how well that compares to the fermentation after decoction, or coming up with a way to do the fermentation without dairy.

I did some more research and I'm starting to have some doubts about how well the bacteria will grow with just dextrose without other things that bacteria thrive on that are found in milk or synthetic growth mediums. I found the best growth medium for Lactobacillus bacteria is Lactobacillus MRS Broth originally; developed in 1960.

The composition of this growth medium can be seen here:
https://microbenotes.com/lactobacilli-mrs-broth/

The major components are 20 Gm/L of dextrose, but it also has 10 Gm/L of Beef Extract and 10 Gm/L of Protease Peptone. This should simulate the major macro-nutrients of sugar and protein that is found in milk. There is also 5 Gm/L of yeast extract. There are also several lesser components which appear to be more trace minerals or similar to facilitate reactions which are listed in the table from the link above.

I also found these blog posts explains further on optimal Lactobacillus growth in the context of brewing:
https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/optim ... us-growth/
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/201 ... cillus-sp/
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/201 ... -girardin/
https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/201 ... obacillus/

I considered using tiny bits of cooked beef along with dextrose as a simple method from standard food sources. I would appreciate if anyone has any insight to how this could be further tweaked to match the growth medium as necessary. I may not need optimal growth, just sufficient growth to produce sufficient GAD. Which components or methods of this medium would likely be needed? Yeast extract is available and commonly used in food.

I would also like to avoid adding any calcium to raise the pH; I also avoid calcium supplementation in addition to dairy. The posts mention that Lactobacillus will lower the pH from the acid production, which will actually inhibit their growth. So, I'm not sure how much of an issue that is. There may be a method in milk which prevents this, however, when fermenting vegetables nobody adds anything to raise the pH. The only issue is sufficient growth is needed to produced the needed GAD.

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Re: Soma's Return

Post by Mcpato » Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:02 am

@researcher22
For a dairy free way of fermenting the tea with lactic acid, why not give making kombucha a try? I know it's also acetic acid there, but I think theres a good chance it would work well! Worth a look I'd say! Just make a tea without worrying about any ibotenic acid conversion and put it in with a kombucha starter. Thats an experiment worthy of vegan attention!

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Re: Soma's Return

Post by researcher22 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:36 pm

@Mcpato The primary concern of mine is not the starter, but rather the growth medium.

I am trying to grow water kefir, but I have had issues with it growing. It is growing but seems slow and I am not very confident in my ability to get it to grow robustly. The first batch is known to start much slower though I've found out. From my research I believe the bacteria really like to have protein added too, which is not part of standard water kefir method, though I think some people sell a starter food for it. Milk contains protein and milk kefir provides this, but water kefir does not. Supposedly water kefir grows just fine though. But, it is very important that I get sufficient growth and GAD production.

I am new to growing water kefir. I believe it is easier than growing kombucha. I could also use probiotic capsules as the starter and don't have to use water kefir starter. However, even with that starter, I think I should add protein and other things. Perhaps some protein and yeast extract would work very well. I'm not sure about the pH level dropping too much. Milk may provide a buffer for that with the calcium, but it may not matter.

I may try to cook some thin slices of beef and break them up and put it in the jar with dextrose and Lactobacillus starter rather than doing the water kefir. That may work well. If I were to use a yeast extract I would want that to be gluten free though, which could be a challenge.

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Re: Soma's Return

Post by researcher22 » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:31 am

I think I'll just try myself and see what happens. I'll try using small bits of cooked beef, LGG bacteria and dextrose in a few weeks and post the results using that growth medium and bacteria after preparing the decoction as described in the video.

Powdered beef would be faster most likely. I'll look into getting the necessary equipment to making powdered beef and consider that.

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