Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by lostmushroomforest » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:14 am

SOMABUCHA V1 (AMANITA KOMBUCHA BASE RECIPE)

Here's the base recipe I used for a 1L batch. Why honey kombucha? It's not vegan, but in my experience, honey kombucha brews more consistently at a lower temperature than sugar kombucha. No heating pad as long as its within the 18-24C (65F-75F) range, and relatively predictable fermentation time/end characteristics. Honey also has also been experimentally demonstrated to be a better food for Lactobacillus than sugar, producing significantly higher populations. I wanted a process that would be easy to replicate for fermentation beginners without specialized equipment, with less chance of stuck fermentation, microbial cross-contamination, or inconsistent decarb. If you do decide to go with sugar kombucha, I have provided tentative sugar quantities in the recipe, but make no guarantees or claims about decarb percentage or fermentation time.

INGREDIENTS/MATERIALS
250mL reverse osmosis water or spring water (for base tea)
10-30g Amanita sp. containing ibotenic acid / muscimol (Use whatever amount you would use for a tea for microdosing. So far, I have made batches with 10g dried A. Pantherina, 15g A. Regalis, 20g dry A. Muscaria, 25g dry A. Muscaria var. Guessowii, and 20g raw A. Muscaria var. Guessowii)
1.5g tea blend (I used 1g black tea, .5g white tea since this is what the culture is adapted to)
40mL honey (or ~50g sugar)

750mL reverse osmosis or spring water (for dilution)
200mL honey kombucha starter tea + SCOBY (Symbiotic Colony of Bacteria and Yeasts)

4.5L / 1 gallon Sanitized Glass Jar + Cover (For those familiar with kombucha, this seems like too big of a jar, but you want to maximize surface area for Amanita kombucha - more SCOBY = more lactobacillus)

INSTRUCTIONS
1) Put 250mL water and mushrooms in a small saucepan and bring to a boil, then reduce to a simmer.
2) Simmer for 30 minutes, adding tea blend in the last 3-5 minutes of the boil. You may need to add additional water during the simmering process as you lose some water.
3) Filter out mushrooms + tea and mix in honey until dissolved. Pour into your glass jar.
4) Add the rest of the water (which should cool it down to the proper temperature). Now you can add the starter tea and SCOBY.
5) Cover the jar with a breathable cover and secure with a rubber band or string (You can use cheesecloth, cloth, or paper towels). Put in a warm place (18-24C, 65-75F) and let ferment for around 3 weeks, or until appropriate level of decarb/acidity has been reached.
6) Remove SCOBY for reuse in other SOMABUCHA batches (Do not use SOMABUCHA starter tea and SCOBY for conventional kombucha as they contain the actives from the Amanita). Filter and bottle SOMABUCHA and store in the fridge. It is recommended to dilute your dosage with water before consuming to reduce the acidity and make it easier on the stomach.

NOTE ON DILUTION: Recipe can be diluted by reducing the Amanita amount in the base tea, or scaling up the other ingredients and keeping the Amanita amount the same.

NOTE ON PARTIAL DECARB: You can bottle the SOMABUCHA earlier in the fermentation process if you want a kombucha with more IBO. 2 weeks seems to be a good balance if using dried caps. I do not know how if additional decarb would occur after refrigeration, but I am guessing it would proceed at a much slower rate since the metabolic processes of all the microbes are slowed down.

SAFETY NOTE:
Treat this as significantly stronger than microdose tea and dose accordingly. I start with 1mL doses to test the strength of a new batch and work my way up from there. I'm assuming the high acidity of the end product will deter chugging this stuff, but please be responsible and treat the mushroom and your body with respect. Amanita's Dreamer's SOMA videos dive deeper into the risks of overconsumption of muscimol if you haven't watched them already.
Last edited by lostmushroomforest on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:37 pm, edited 19 times in total.
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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by lostmushroomforest » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:06 pm

10/23 Update: After moving the A. Muscaria var. Guessowii batch to a 4.5L/1 gallon container, fermentation has proceeded more quickly. I tried a 5mL dose 2 days ago (19 days fermentation time) and it feels as strong / psychoactive as a 5mL dose of the A. Pantherina SOMABUCHA with more of a psychedelic feel to it. There's still a little bit of IBO feeling, but its mostly MUS and possibly other actives? Very interesting. Its hard to tell how much of the higher IBO ratio is because I started with fresh mushrooms or initially used a fermentation vessel that did not give the SOMABUCHA proper surface area - it has been fermenting for 3 weeks now and is nowhere near as acidic as the finished A. Pantherina batch which I bottled at 3 weeks. All of this is especially weird since 20g of fresh Amanita Muscaria should dry to less than 10g (I could not find an exact water weight %) and [A. Pantherina] is supposed to be significantly stronger by weight.

Part of this may also be due to the fact that all the work of decarb is being done by the bacterial culture and possibly some decarboxylases extracted from the fresh flesh of the mushroom, because you are not starting with a dried mushroom where there is some degree of conversion depending on the temperature/method of drying. Since we also know some of the ibotenic acid / muscimol content is lost when drying from this study , this has me wondering if making kombucha or soma from fresh caps may be a way to more efficiently extract/preserve the ibotenic acid / muscimol content of the mushroom vs. drying. I also wonder if there are more volatile actives in the mushroom that are lost through the drying process, but would not be lost through hot water extraction + fermentation.

I know there are lot of confounding variables at play here, specifically differences in chemotype between species / differences in IBO concentration between mushrooms, so it is too early to make any claims from this anecdotal data. I will have to make some kombucha with dried A. Muscaria var. Guessowii to see if there are any qualitative differences in effect beyond IBO/MUS ratios. I realized I also should be doing pH testing for more precision, so I will have more detail on that in upcoming updates. This would be a great thing for scientists to study with proper equipment, since it is difficult to compare potency/ loss of IBO/MUS without testing for concentration.

I'm also curious about what would happen if you pureed raw amanitas and mixed with them with salt + lactobacillus culture i.e. lacto-pickle brine. Would love to hear anyone else's results from using raw amanitas in ferments!
Last edited by lostmushroomforest on Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by Nanner » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:24 pm

I am no where near ready for this but i will be one day before too long so if you wouldn't mind answering some questions I'd really appreciate it:

"750mL R.O. water (for dilution)" what does the R.O. stand for?
"200mL honey kombucha starter tea + SCOBY (Symbiotic Colony of Bacteria and Yeasts)" could you possibly put a link for these items, so I'm sure to have it right?

I'm confused about your statement about saving the scoby for future use with Amanita but then it is followed in a statement in () that suggests the opposite?

I am going back and reviewing AD videos and taking notes this time around so I will probably find the answer there but in the meantime, can you explain how you can tell the difference in the amount of IBO to Mus conversion has taken place and are there any reasons to not want the most conversion you can get?
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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by lostmushroomforest » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:52 pm

Nanner wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:24 pm
I am no where near ready for this but i will be one day before too long so if you wouldn't mind answering some questions I'd really appreciate it:

"750mL R.O. water (for dilution)" what does the R.O. stand for?
"200mL honey kombucha starter tea + SCOBY (Symbiotic Colony of Bacteria and Yeasts)" could you possibly put a link for these items, so I'm sure to have it right?

I'm confused about your statement about saving the scoby for future use with Amanita but then it is followed in a statement in () that suggests the opposite?

I am going back and reviewing AD videos and taking notes this time around so I will probably find the answer there but in the meantime, can you explain how you can tell the difference in the amount of IBO to Mus conversion has taken place and are there any reasons to not want the most conversion you can get?
Thank you for pointing this out! I edited the recipe for clarity. I realized I may need to add a little primer on kombucha to my recipe when I have time. There's a lot of resources out there, but I've found https://kombuchakamp.com is a good resource for those just starting out.

- R.O. stands for Reverse Osmosis filtered water. You can also use spring or well water. The important part is that there is no added chlorine, chloramines or fluoride (like in a lot of tap water) which will kill or inhibit the growth of the microbes in the kombucha culture. This means fewer lactobacilli and less glutamate decarboxylase.

- I created my honey kombucha culture by buying a (sugar) kombucha SCOBY and a jun honey kombucha SCOBY and starting a kombucha batch with them. You only really need a jun honey kombucha starter, but it may take slightly longer for the culture to adapt to black tea (if you are using black tea). You can use the Amanita kombucha recipe minus the Amanitas for this - just bring the water up to a boil and add tea. It can take a batch or two for the kombucha to adapt - a healthy kombucha culture quickly forms a SCOBY and there is plenty of bubbling. As far as sourcing SCOBYs, I've ordered from many vendors, but I've found the best deals are from etsy vendors - just check for good reviews. The SCOBY will come in starter tea, which is kombucha that has acidified past the point people normally drink it.

- I didn't word it clearly, but I meant do not to use the Amanita SCOBY / starter liquid for non-Amanita kombucha since it contains muscimol and other actives.

- If you try a drop or two of your unfermented base tea, you will understand what the ibotenic acid feels like. It feels very mentally energetic and clear (almost manic at times for some). There is a body load to it that can include numbness of the extremities, nausea, headaches, and muscle twitching depending on dosage/sensitivity. You will not notice these effects when it is mostly decarbed - instead a smooth relaxed feeling. I will be taking some pH readings of my batches going forward so people have another method to determine when their batch is done aside from trying it- I will update the recipe accordingly.

-Some people like less decarb if they are using it for microdosing for daytime use or want a balance between the effects of ibotenic acid / muscimol. It can feel more dissociative/stimulating that higher levels of decarb. Amanita Dreamer goes into more detail on it in her videos.
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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by Nanner » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:13 am

Thank you so much for all the clarifications!

We use a Berkeley water filter but I'll use spring water just to be safe.

I'm only doing micro dosing but it sounds to me like this process would make the Amanita go further since I currently have ro purchase. I've been foraging edibles for several years but only gotten interested in this since I ran into AD at Festival.

Thank you again!!

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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by Nanner » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:22 am

Could you tell me something else?

If I buy caps that have been dehydrated at 100 F they have not converted to muscamol to my understanding. Since they are already cracker dry would you benefit from drying again at higher temp?

I am about to make my second batch and wondering if I should dry again and/or add lemon so that it is more potent so as to make it go further. I only take 1tsp dose during the day.

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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by lostmushroomforest » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:46 pm

Nanner wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:13 am
Thank you so much for all the clarifications!

We use a Berkeley water filter but I'll use spring water just to be safe.

I'm only doing micro dosing but it sounds to me like this process would make the Amanita go further since I currently have ro purchase. I've been foraging edibles for several years but only gotten interested in this since I ran into AD at Festival.

Thank you again!!
Spring water will produce a slightly more vigorous fermentation, but a Berkey water filter should be fine for your purposes. If the Amanitas are already fully dry the decarboxylase enzymes are no longer active - you will get a minor amount of conversion from drying not fully dry Amanitas but you will get the most conversion from drying in the temperature range of 60C-80C / 140-176F range if you are drying fresh Amanitas. The lower the temperature, the less ibotenic acid you will lose. I normally dry at 155F. Until the specific decarboxylases are isolated/identified from Amanita and tested for ideal temperature range I don't think we will get an exact number, since the two sources we're going off of are the Trent Austin Patent and that research paper I linked earlier in the thread.
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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by lostmushroomforest » Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:45 pm

Found some research papers about the effectiveness of glutamate decarboxylases from different species of Lactobacillus and posted about it in the General Scientific Papers forum, thought I would link to it here. This is especially relevant for non-yogurt based Amanita ferments that take longer to acidify and may not contain Lactobacillus Acidophilus or Lactobacillus Brevis, two species that are most effective at decarboxylating glutamate to GABA (and ibotenic acid to muscimol). Supplementation of the microbial culture with Lactobacillus Acidophilus or Lactobacillus Brevis may increase speed/percentage of decarb. It also calls into question whether honey kombucha is the most effective kombucha fermentation for Amanitas, as Lactobacillus brevis, one of the Lactobacillus species sometimes found in kombucha, has an ideal decarboxylation temperature of 30C / 86F, making it better suited for the temperature range of sugar kombucha fermentation (75F-85F).

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=758
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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by Nanner » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:07 pm

Interesting about the info, thank you much!

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Re: Derek And David's Vegan Conversion Thread

Post by lostmushroomforest » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:16 am

We might have a wrinkle when it comes to the shelf life of Amanita ferments...certain bacteria and yeast can uptake GABA into their cells using as an enzyme called GABA permease (gabP) to use as an energy source when they run out of other food sources. Unfortunately, GABA permease also uptakes muscimol into cells as demonstrated by this paper:

Substrate specificity of the Escherichia coli 4-aminobutyrate carrier encoded by gabP: Uptake and counterflow of structurally diverse molecules
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _molecules

E. Coli will not be found in most ferments in significant concentrations, if at all, but Saccharomyces Cerevisae, a yeast used to ferment bread/beer/wine and also found in kombucha and yogurt, has the ability to use GABA (and muscimol) as a food source. I will need to do some more research to find out what other bacteria/fungi potentially present in ferments have GABA permease and under what temperatures and environmental conditions GABA permease mediated degradation takes place.

The first question is whether this is happening at a significant level during fermentation and after fermentation under refrigeration conditions. Since GABA degradation is population dependent, do any of these gabP containing microbes reach population levels large enough to cause noticeable loss of muscimol?

The other question is, what can be done to limit the growth of microbes with GABA permease for different ferments? This is not as much of an issue for SOMA, as lactose is a poor food source for Saccharomyces Cerevisae and it is unlikely to reach significant populations. For SOMABUCHA, possible methods of reducing the potential population of Saccharomyces Cerevisae include starting with a low enough pH and not using excessive honey/sugar, which could cause yeast overgrowth and raise the alcohol level of the ferment.

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