Heating/drying caps amanita muscaria and pantha

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seahorseoracle
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Heating/drying caps amanita muscaria and pantha

Post by seahorseoracle » Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:12 am

Hi all,

I'm doing my due diligence and asking a question before making my first tea for micro dosing. I have Amanita muscaria caps from Lithuania that were dried at 38 degrees celcius for 4 days. After watching the preparation videos from Amanita Dreamer, she recommends a temp of 72 degrees celcius to convert 30%, and then heating the tea converts another 30%. So being that my Amanita didn't dry at 72 degrees, is it a good idea to dry it further in a dehydrator at 72 degrees celcius? Or is it ok that it dried at a lower temp for 4 days? Would love some feedback here.

Also i've ordered some pantherina and does that require the same 72 degrees celcius drying temp for 2 days? Or is that one requiring different drying temps/length of time in the dryer ?

Thanks for your time and considerations.

Vanillad
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Re: Heating/drying caps amanita muscaria and pantha

Post by Vanillad » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:42 pm

I did a write-up regarding the dry-then-boil-with-lemon = 30%+30%=60% method:

"There are many ways to prepare psychoactive muscaroid and pantheroid Amanita-species mushrooms for medicinal and psychoactive use, all of them valid for different uses.
I just wanted to comment on a common method, which says to dehydrate the mushrooms for a 30% decarboxylation of the ibotenic acid (IBO), to then simmer the dried mushrooms in a pot of water with some lemon juice for up to a half hour for another 30% decarboxylation of the IBO, then strain out and discard the mushrooms and drink however much of the resulting liquid.
This is a perfectly valid method of consumption that accomplishes two things — it bypasses chitin consumption (which would come from consuming actual mushroom matter, introducing a potential factor for nausea) since the alkaloids muscimol (MUS) and IBO are water-soluble and will have “fully” moved from the mushrooms to the water in about 20-30 minutes, and it gets you the average potency of all specimens used within the liquid since using specimens separately can result in significantly varying potency.
What I would like to comment on are the two 30% numbers and where they are sourced from and why it is actually more complicated than that (with the point being that understanding this info can be helpful). The first 30% number (from drying the mushrooms) has been confirmed to be from a 2012 patent ( https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140004084A1/en ) which says “Indeed, a relatively low conversion rate of only 30% is typical by merely drying fungal tissue, leaving an unacceptably high concentration of ibotenic acid, typically 180 to 1800 ppm.” However, the source given for *this* info is a 2006 study ( https://doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2006.01.004 ) but then the source given for that number in *that* study is actually a 1993 study ( https://doi.org/10.3358/shokueishi.34.153 ) which gives *much* more detailed information on various decarboxylation results when the mushrooms are dried at different temperatures and durations. The reason the 2012 patent says “…30% is typical…” is because the dehydration temperatures people will typically be using (40-50C / 104-122F) will decarboxylate about 35% of the ibotenic acid. This temperature range (40-50C) of open-air drying is also the best range for keeping IBO/MUS potency.
So let’s say you dry the mushrooms at 40-50C. Now 35% of the IBO has undergone a total combination of being removed (through open-air drying) and decarboxylation. Then you put the dried mushrooms into a pot of water (for best results the dried mushrooms should be broken up into small pieces — not powder or else difficult to strain at the end — and the pot lid kept on the whole time, during the initial boil and the following simmer) and simmer for 20-30 minutes. We know that ibotenic acid has been consistently shown to decarboxylate rapidly when submerged in acidic environments at boiling water temperature (or close to it). The sources for this are a 1985 study which shows a “full” decarboxylation occurring when submerged in 2.7 pH water at 100C for about 2.3 hours ( https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1471-4159.1985.tb04052.x ); a 1993 study which shows that when compared to pH values of 5.0, 8.0, and 10.0, 4.0 (a close number to the regarded-as-effective 2-3.5 pH range) is significantly more effective at decarboxylating IBO ( https://doi.org/10.3358/shokueishi.34.153 ); and a 2012 patent which replicates the 1985 study to very effective results (2.6 pH at 195-212F for 3 hours yielding a 53.89:1 MUS:IBO ratio when compared to the 0.29:1 control sample — this is going from having 3.45x more IBO than MUS to having 53.89x more MUS than IBO). Using the information in these studies, if the rapid-decarb range of 2.6/2.7/(even 4.0?) is created by adding lemon juice to the water (or any other edible acidic liquid or dissolvable solid), then simmering for 30 minutes will achieve a 20% decarboxylation of the IBO in the liquid — since 20% of the remaining 65% from drying at 40-50C would be another 13%, you will have achieved *about* a 48% decarb by this point and will have fully moved all IBO and MUS from the mushrooms to the water (not quite the 30+30=60% that is usually assumed).
And for many uses this will be a great method (i.e. small infrequent doses). However, if you have access to fresh/raw mushrooms and can use them, the drying part is unnecessary and a higher potency can be achieved by starting the simmering method with fresh mushrooms and simmering for however long you’d like to achieve whatever level of decarboxylation you prefer (with a “full” decarb occurring at approximately 2-2.5 hours under perfectly controlled conditions, although considering variables and adjustments 3 hours is more of a guarantee). But!—if you are not measuring pH when adding the lemon juice (or whatever you’re using), that 30 minutes of simmering might not be achieving *any* decarb at all and will simply be moving the alkaloids from the mushrooms to the water (which still bypasses chitin consumption and creates an averaged potency) — if you are going to add lemon juice for the purpose of decarboxylation (and not for flavor), you will need to make sure the pH of the liquid is at least 4.0 but I would shoot for 3.0 or as low as 2.5), from that point you can simmer as long as you prefer (with the lid on) to achieve the amount of decarb you prefer for whichever use you are aiming for!🙂
There are even ways to achieve a higher decarb, but they are less accessible to the average person and take longer. One method is outlined in the 2012 patent by using pure glutamate decarboxylase and P5P maintained at 98F for 4 hours which resulted in an even higher 92.77:1 MUS:IBO ratio."

So if your mushrooms are already dried, you can merely rip or slice them into small pieces, add to a pot of water (not an excessive amount of water), bring to boil with the lid on, and simmer for 30 minutes with the lid on, straining out the mushrooms at the end and squeezing any excess liquid into the pot, then discarding the mushrooms. If you then wish to decarb the IBO in the liquid further (depending on your use and desires), you can get the pH value of the water between 2.5 and 3.0 and then simmer with the lid on for up to 3 hours (which would be a "full" decarb). Drying is not a necessary step in decarbing, but should only be used for long-term storage in mason jars. Raw/fresh specimens are always better for preparation since they will contain the most IBO possible for decarbing. The longer your prep the more mushrooms I would add to the pot to make it more worthwhile -- if you make the liquid extra potent you can use it for several weeks, keeping anything you can't use within a week in the refrigerator for later.
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Re: Heating/drying caps amanita muscaria and pantha

Post by stoinge » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:37 am

If i cook in spring water with ph of 8 and a lemon will the ph come down to 2.5?
How long does the tea keep in a jar in the fridge for?
Sry i'm about to have my first experience but looking to micro dose. Was gonna cook about 3 grams of AM

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