Muscaria's Deadliness

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Muscaria's Deadliness

Post by amanitadreamer » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 pm

Pls refer people here who shame you or make claims of its deadliness.

Muscaria deadliness
This is a work in progress. It has been on my mind since the beginning of working with the mushroom and the misinformation or conflicting information. And since scholars of today agree it is not deadly and yet I get comments and shaming by people saying it is and telling me to stop sharing information about its use. I have just been so busy I haven’t had time to stop and record what I am doing here now. Instead of waiting, I am going to just start recording what I have here. I will continue to update the citations when I have time.

In the three years that I have been working with amanita muscaria I have followed up all claims of deadliness and so far have yet to find one. I have found some disturbing trends and what I believe to be egregious behavior by scientists. I have found laziness and down right misinformation by emergency room physicians. I have found bias in field guides and in some cases suspicious behavior by Poland from research in the 1990’s.
When people come at me on the internet claiming deadliness and I ask for citations, rarely is one given or one of a few same studies who are engaging in circular citations where they do not, in fact, cite any cases of death. Following are some of the trends of bad faith I have observed.
1. The few cases of death reported involved large amounts of alcohol. This would bear out since it is well known that the use of benzodiazapenes and alcohol can be deadly and muscimol uses similar receptors (Gaba) as benzos do.

2. I see many claims that ibotenic acid is neurotoxic and wording that leads the reader to believe it killed by destroying the brain. This is also egregious behavior by scientists. There are no oral use studies on amanita muscaria. All ibotenic acid studies are by injection of large amounts of it. And indeed, one study with injection into the body, not the brain, showed no neurotoxicity. I discuss this in the description of my video on ibotenic acid research. These claims come with no citations.

3. In the 1990’s there were a number of Polish papers written on the highly toxic and deadly nature of muscarias. They were full of misinformation, poorly cited claims and broke all the rules of correctly written scientific papers. They set off a rash of copycat research by other countries, using those papers as citations and the studies became circular, citing each other with yet no citations of a single case of death. The use of the Polish papers continues today which makes me wonder about the research of current scientists using these papers as citations. Continued publication of papers from Poland that violate the rules for write ups and data analysis, continued research and studies done with processes that invalidate the results.

4. Bias in field guides. See the paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... an_Example
I am interviewing one of the authors of this study on camera, soon.

5. Laziness and bias by emergency room physicians with more egregious treatment, false claims and misinformation in case study write ups. Many ER doctors do no due diligence in determining the actual mushroom consumed. Many think the amanita muscaria contains the same amatoxins as the deadly amanitas, death cap and destroying angel and have done no research or educated themselves on the toxins. I see a lot of ego based claims using inciting titles to their papers on acute toxicity with statements of deadliness and then their medical intervention saved the life of the patient. And buried deep in the paper are always the statements of little was done, palliative care, supportive care, patient recovered with little lasting effects, and other statements like this. This is actually the most common tactic and trope I see in toxicity reports. Again with no citations proving deadliness.

6. The continued quoting of a single death in the late 1800’s where the treating physician even stated he doubted the mushroom was to blame due to the large amount of alcohol the patient drank. I cannot find this citation. I'm looking. Also see the paper written on this death under citations for the wikipedia citation.

7. Bad information in Wikipedia.

8. Bad claims in the Material Safety Data Sheet of muscimol with no citations.

9. I can't find the name of this tactic but I hope someone will help. It's when people who are selling worthless things, making baseless claims or engaging in pseudoscience use this.....They state something that is true, a commonly accepted thing or a statement of fact, then make immediate claims or statements right behind it, that are not true. I add to this using wording that taken literally is true but the way it is said is meant to decieve or using facial expression and color and marketing leads one to come to a conclusion that is not true. I see this very often with amanita muscaria in write ups that begin with titles like, Amanita Muscaria, the deadly mushrooom. Then start the write up discussing the actually deadly amanitas, destroying angels and death caps (the true statements) right under a huge title of how deadly muscaria is. People read how deadly these amatoxins are in these other amanitas and the muscaria becomes guilty by association.
This YOuTube video is so agregious in his handling of misinformation of amanita muscaria. He uses all of these tactics. I wrote asking him to remove it. You can see his comments in our conversation in the comments section. And this is allowed to stay on YouTube. But my videos with accurate information are not.


Misunderstanding about "Cause of Death"
In the scientific community there is an agreed upon set of rules for determining cause of death. There has to be uniformity to maintain safety standards in reporting of deaths and in interpretation of data of things that cause death. If something alone cannot cause death, then it is not the cause of death. Symptoms can cause death. Whatever gave you the symptoms is considered the cuase of death. So if a virus causes a cascade of symptoms that end up causing death, then the virus is responsible.
If a substance alone cannot cause death but when consumed with another substance can cause death, then any of those substances must be considered alone. In the case of amanita muscaria alone it is not deadly but when consumed with alcohol it can be, then muscaria is still not deadly. It is a combination of 2 drugs causing death.
If a normally healthy person will not die due to complications from a virus or consumption of a drug then those are not deadly. But if people who have other conditions which can cause their death in the presence of those things, then the death is due to complications of their pre-existing heath. There is a publicized death with muscaria where someone froze to death sitting in the cold naked having consumed muscaria. The freezing to death caused death because amanita doesn't freeze you to death. Ibotenic acid can make you sweat and that can make you take your clothing off and if it's below freezing outside, well, you might freeze to death. Feel free to add to cause of death with citations if you'd like.


For the sake of brevity, I will leave my citations and links at the end of this with the number of my claim above. Feel free to follow up my work here, double check me for accuracy. It’s why I am writing this. Not only as a place to send trolls but also so that others can double check my work. But also to start exposing the bad science and claims that are just continually repeated in the hopes of calling it out to stop it. If this has led to social media taking down educational content on this mushroom then the loss of life to suicide and the continual suffering that could be helped by this mushroom is on the hands of those engaged in this egregious behavior. Science is supposed to be who we count on for accurate information and so far, when it comes to this mushroom, I am seeing disgusting and shameful behavior in the dissemination of information.

NAMA
I read that The North American Mycological Association has stated no deaths due to muscarias in the past 100 years. This is the link that is given as a citation for this claim:
Mushroom poisoning syndromes. North American Mycological Association (NAMA) website. NAMA. URL accessed on 2009-03-22
And this is the statement:
There is a great deal of confusion concerning these toxins, and much misinformation about their treatment. Atropine is NOT indicated in cases of poisoning by ibotenic acid or muscimol but is frequently cited as a treatment for A. muscaria poisonings in the medical literature, where the toxin is erroneously listed as muscarine! Atropine's effects are close to those of ibotenic acid, and may even exacerbate the symptoms.
Symptoms appear within 30 minute to 2 hours after ingestion, and last for several hours. Nausea and vomiting are quite common, but the principle effects are on the central nervous system: confusion, visual distortion, a feeling of greater strength, delusions and convulsions. Drowsiness is a common symptom, and many who ingest these mushrooms fall asleep and can not be roused. In rare cases the coma-like state can last for more than 24 hours. This facet of the syndrome can be particularly frightening for the attending physician, as most cases involve patients who arrive in this apparently comatose state. The resulting panicked reaction and overtreatment, generally produces no benefit to the patient. In humans, there are no reliably documented cases of death from toxins in these mushrooms in the past 100 years, though there is one case where a camper froze to death while in the comatose state. Dogs and especially cats can die from these isoxazole toxins, though it is important for the vet not to euthanize an animal even though the chances for recovery appear remote — once the animal awakens from the comatose state recovery is normally complete over the course of a week or so.
Treatment of humans and animals is largely supportive. Measures to reduce anxiety can include reassuring the patient that the effects are only temporary. If there has been extensive vomiting and diarrhea, measures to replace fluids and electrolytes can speed recovery. Recovery is normally spontaneous. To reiterate: Muscarine plays no documented clinical role in poisonings by Amanita muscaria or A. pantherina. Atropine is not indicated.

MY PERSONAL OPINIONS
I believe that muscaria, like anything, can be fatal. But I believe the reason why it is not is built into the mushroom itself. Ibotenic acid is not the deadly or potentially deadly compound. Muscimol would be the isoxazole that would cause death. It is a nervous system depressant and would cause death by depressing breathing. But it takes a large amount to actually do this. Since ibotenic acid is toxic, consuming enough of it would make you start throwing up and thus ridding the body of it and subsequently the resulting muscimol. However much of it one could consume before throwing up is how much would convert to muscimol and cause the depressant activity of the nervous system and in worst cases, coma, but not death. Is is possible to keep consuming it to the point of death? Anything is possible but even with humans being stupid, using it dried, or as tea or reduced it still isn't causing death. And I believe that it is due to the toxicity of ibotenic acid and throwing up.

My citations:
3. Polish papers used repeatedly, partial list

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9432298/ [Amanita pantherina and Amanita muscaria poisonings--pathogenesis, symptoms and treatment]
[Article in Polish]
K Tupalska-Wilczyńska 1, R Ignatowicz, A Poziemski, H Wójcik, G Wilczyński
Affiliations expand
PMID: 9432298

[Poisoning with spotted and red mushrooms--pathogenesis, symptoms, treatment].
Tupalska-Wilczyńska K, Ignatowicz R, Poziemski A, Wójcik H, Wilczyński G.
Wiad Lek. 1996;49(1-6):66-71.
PMID: 9173659





7. Wikipedia citations and claims
Fatal dose at 15 caps with citation 53. This citation is a book that’s out of print and copies are $35. For now I can’t speak to this validity of this source. Benjamin, Mushrooms: poisons and panaceas, p 309. I would claim that since the fatal dose is a calculated on and not an actual one, is has to be calculated since we don't have actual death data.
Wiki goes on to say Deaths from this fungus A. muscaria have been reported in historical journal articles and newspaper report
The citation number 54 refers to the one single reference from 1897 death attributed to muscaria. That reference cannot be found but is a medical record. Instead I found a 10 page paper on that subject. It was one death resulting from misidentification. In this paper I found this quote which shows how a single error can be reported and then repeated to cause a belief and bias 100 years later. This is the quote followed by a link to the paper.
“Finally, the most potentially damning statement made by those surrounding the case was that of Frank Baker. A superintendent at the Smithsonian Institution, Baker wrote to Peck in 1898: “You have probably heard of the death from mushroom poisoning that occurred in this city last fall due to an error in an illustration of Amanita muscaria published by that Department [U.S.D.A.].²¹ If it is true that an error in a published U.S.D.A. illustration resulted in de Vecchj’s misidentifi cation, the fault does not reside in Th omas Taylor’s most popular mushroom publications. Th e de Vecchj poisoning reverberated through the mycological community for several years. Lucien Marcus Underwood of the New York Botan i cal Garden, author of Moulds, Mildews and Mushrooms (1899), discussed the subject with mushroom clubs in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington. William G. Farlow speculated that de Vecchj had mistaken the fl y agaric for Amanita rubescens since his collection of A. muscaria was gathered in late autumn “when it is generally paler than in midsummer.”²² Nina L. Marshall published Th e Mushroom Book in 1901, placing Count de Vecchj in the same company with Czar Alexis of Russia (both succumbed to Amanita muscaria). In the Charles Horton Peck Archive, an unpublished manuscript by John N. Brown, Th e Field Book of American Mushrooms, mentions the death of “Count de Vecchi and a number of his friends,” seemingly beginning a process of mythologizing the case by exaggerating its results. Later discussions of the de Vecchj incident appear in an appendix on “Mushroom Poisoning” by O. E. Fischer in C. H. Kauff man’s Th e Agaricaceae of Michigan (1918) and in “The Distribution of Poisons in Mushrooms” (1909) by William W. Ford, based on an address given to the Boston Mycological Society. “
Here's the paper: https://namyco.org/docs/CountAchilles.pdf

Citation 55 Is a reference to an article in the Journal of The American Medical Association which I don’t have a membership to. The abstract actually states that the mushroom is generally considered to be not deadly. Here’s the link:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/a ... act/666591
Citation 55 is just another reference to the same 1897 death.
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