What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

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granitictruth
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What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by granitictruth » Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:25 pm

Does fermentation convert more of the ibotenic acid to muscimol than drying at sufficiently high heat? I need to learn how to covert as much of the ibo to muscimol as possible because at this point, I would not be able to handle any stimulation. If fermentation is more effective, how much more? How much of the ibotenic acid is it possible to convert with either method?

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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by lostmushroomforest » Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:09 pm

The methods with the highest percentage of decarb are holding the Amanita water extract at a 2.7pH for 150m using citric acid (from the 1985 Nielsen Paper) and using isolated glutatamate decarboxylase and P5P at the right heat/pH range (from the Trent Austin Patent). The first method is easier. For the most efficient extraction you would want to start with fresh mushrooms.

Heat-drying fresh caps in the 40-60C range degrades up to 60% of the ibotenic acid and converts up to 10% of it to muscimol (based on the Tsunoda 1993 paper). One interesting thing from this paper was that they got up to a 25% conversion rate / ~ 30% loss rate from sun drying for 3 days (UV decarboxylation). Sun-drying is tricky if you don't have the right climate / set up for it though. So for both of these methods, you will get a more pleasant ratio because of reduced ibotenic acid and increased muscimol, but you are not getting the most efficient extraction and nowhere near full conversion.

Fermentation is a little bit more complicated since decarboxylation is dependent on A) having Lactobacillus or other bacteria species that have glutamate decarboxylase B) are efficient decarboxylators of glutamate/ibotenic C) large enough populations of those bacteria, and D) the correct pH/temperature range for those bacteria. You will probably get the highest decarb from the raw milk yogurt method described in the SOMA videos since both raw milk and yogurt contain bacteria that are very efficient decarboxylators. I am currently working on figuring out the ideal kombucha recipe for decarb, but it takes a lot longer (3 weeks) so I would not recommend it as a method for your purposes. As far full as conversion, the most that I've found experimentally demonstrated is a decarboxylation rate of 93% for an isolated high decarb strain of L. Brevis . Depending on what microbes you have in the ferment, the decarb rate is likely lower than this.
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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by granitictruth » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:47 pm

lostmushroomforest wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:09 pm
The methods with the highest percentage of decarb are holding the Amanita water extract at a 2.7pH for 150m (from the 1985 Nielsen Paper) and using isolated glutatamate decarboxylase and P5P at the right heat/pH range (from the Trent Austin Patent). The first method is easier. For the most efficient extraction you would want to start with fresh mushrooms.

Heat-drying fresh caps in the 40-60C range degrades up to 60% of the ibotenic acid and converts up to 10% of it to muscimol (based on the Tsunoda 1993 paper). One interesting thing from this paper was that they got up to a 25% conversion rate / ~ 30% loss rate from sun drying for 3 days. Sun-drying is tricky if you don't have the right climate / set up for it though. So for both of these methods, you will get a more pleasant ratio because of reduced ibotenic acid and increased muscimol, but you are not getting the most efficient extraction and nowhere near full conversion.

Fermentation is a little bit more complicated since decarboxylation is dependent on A) having Lactobacillus or other bacteria species that have glutamate decarboxylase B) are efficient decarboxylators of glutamate/ibotenic C) large enough populations of those bacteria, and D) the correct pH/temperature range for those bacteria. You will probably get the highest decarb from the raw milk yogurt method described in the SOMA videos since both raw milk and yogurt contain bacteria that are very efficient decarboxylators. I am currently working on figuring out the ideal kombucha recipe for decarb, but it takes a lot longer (3 weeks) so I would not recommend it as a method for your purposes. As far full as conversion, the most that I've found experimentally demonstrated is a decarboxylation rate of 93% for an isolated high decarb strain of L. Brevis . Depending on what microbes you have in the ferment, the decarb rate is likely lower than this.
Okay, well I wish I could have dairy, then. How were you able to get the correct strains of bacteria?
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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by lostmushroomforest » Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:10 am

I can't do dairy either, which is why I started making SOMABUCHA. The culture I'm using is from a kombucha batch that's been going continuously for 4 or 5 years now and its been in a bunch of different locations, so its pretty diverse in terms of microbes. It decarbed tea made from dried amanitas to the point where there was no stimulation. When i used tea made from raw mushrooms there was some residual stimulation despite being mostly sedating/relaxing. I am personally satisfied with the level of decarb, but I'm working on trying to figure out how to make it go faster and get higher percentages for others who want as close as possible to full decarb.

Another easy option could be doing coconut yogurt with a yogurt starter that contains L. acidophilus.

As for sourcing high decarb microbes? I'm still trying to figure out that myself. I haven't been able to find any isolated high decarb / GABA strains for sale online. Unfortunately, a lot of the commercially available isolated Lactobacillus strains/species aren't the most efficient decarboxylators. Two possible approaches to increase the probability of high decarb Lactobacillus is to start with diverse microbial cultures that are known to contain Lactobacillus (i.e. yogurt, lacto-pickles, kimchi, kombucha) and figure out ways to introduce wild microbes into the ferment. I need to do more research as to methods for cultivating wild lactobacillus, but so far I plan on doing some experiments with lactofermented wild fruit, lacto-pickle brine, and rice water to augment the microbes in SOMABUCHA.

Here's the thread that talks about non-dairy ferments, including SOMABUCHA:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=712
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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by granitictruth » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:40 pm

lostmushroomforest wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 1:10 am
I can't do dairy either, which is why I started making SOMABUCHA. The culture I'm using is from a kombucha batch that's been going continuously for 4 or 5 years now and its been in a bunch of different locations, so its pretty diverse in terms of microbes. It decarbed tea made from dried amanitas to the point where there was no stimulation. When i used tea made from raw mushrooms there was some residual stimulation despite being mostly sedating/relaxing. I am personally satisfied with the level of decarb, but I'm working on trying to figure out how to make it go faster and get higher percentages for others who want as close as possible to full decarb.

Another easy option could be doing coconut yogurt with a yogurt starter that contains L. acidophilus.

As for sourcing high decarb microbes? I'm still trying to figure out that myself. I haven't been able to find any isolated high decarb / GABA strains for sale online. Unfortunately, a lot of the commercially available isolated Lactobacillus strains/species aren't the most efficient decarboxylators. Two possible approaches to increase the probability of high decarb Lactobacillus is to start with diverse microbial cultures that are known to contain Lactobacillus (i.e. yogurt, lacto-pickles, kimchi, kombucha) and figure out ways to introduce wild microbes into the ferment. I need to do more research as to methods for cultivating wild lactobacillus, but so far I plan on doing some experiments with lactofermented wild fruit, lacto-pickle brine, and rice water to augment the microbes in SOMABUCHA.

Here's the thread that talks about non-dairy ferments, including SOMABUCHA:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=712
Okay, thanks, that's really helpful. Are you able to share a scoby from your batches?

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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by amanittz » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:21 pm

lostmushroomforest wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:09 pm
The methods with the highest percentage of decarb are holding the Amanita water extract at a 2.7pH for 150m using citric acid (from the 1985 Nielsen Paper) and using isolated glutatamate decarboxylase and P5P at the right heat/pH range (from the Trent Austin Patent). The first method is easier. For the most efficient extraction you would want to start with fresh mushrooms.

Heat-drying fresh caps in the 40-60C range degrades up to 60% of the ibotenic acid and converts up to 10% of it to muscimol (based on the Tsunoda 1993 paper). One interesting thing from this paper was that they got up to a 25% conversion rate / ~ 30% loss rate from sun drying for 3 days (UV decarboxylation). Sun-drying is tricky if you don't have the right climate / set up for it though. So for both of these methods, you will get a more pleasant ratio because of reduced ibotenic acid and increased muscimol, but you are not getting the most efficient extraction and nowhere near full conversion.

Fermentation is a little bit more complicated since decarboxylation is dependent on A) having Lactobacillus or other bacteria species that have glutamate decarboxylase B) are efficient decarboxylators of glutamate/ibotenic C) large enough populations of those bacteria, and D) the correct pH/temperature range for those bacteria. You will probably get the highest decarb from the raw milk yogurt method described in the SOMA videos since both raw milk and yogurt contain bacteria that are very efficient decarboxylators. I am currently working on figuring out the ideal kombucha recipe for decarb, but it takes a lot longer (3 weeks) so I would not recommend it as a method for your purposes. As far full as conversion, the most that I've found experimentally demonstrated is a decarboxylation rate of 93% for an isolated high decarb strain of L. Brevis . Depending on what microbes you have in the ferment, the decarb rate is likely lower than this.
I boiled my dehydrated amanita muscaria caps only 50 minutes in boiling water with the addition of a whole lemon juice and the 10 grams caps tea effects were very potent and dreamer. :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by lostmushroomforest » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:02 pm

@granitictruth It's already below freezing where I live, so I don't feel confident mailing live cultures, sorry. I also am using all of the SOMABUCHA scoby for batches at the moment. I could send some in the spring once I have a lot more and it has fully adapted to Amanitas and the weather has warmed up. In the meantime, my recommendation would be to purchase a well-rated Jun honey kombucha scoby on etsy and use that along with raw honey (mix in without heating for dormant wild bacteria) to get a good starter culture going. If you want extra diversity you can order cultures from several different sources.
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Re: What is the advantage of decarbing with fermentation vs heat?

Post by granitictruth » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:55 pm

lostmushroomforest wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:02 pm
@granitictruth It's already below freezing where I live, so I don't feel confident mailing live cultures, sorry. I also am using all of the SOMABUCHA scoby for batches at the moment. I could send some in the spring once I have a lot more and it has fully adapted to Amanitas and the weather has warmed up. In the meantime, my recommendation would be to purchase a well-rated Jun honey kombucha scoby on etsy and use that along with raw honey (mix in without heating for dormant wild bacteria) to get a good starter culture going. If you want extra diversity you can order cultures from several different sources.
Thank you!

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